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Old 15.01.2017, 01:22
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I don't think folks should gang up on anyone - including Odile.
I totally agree but I don't think anyone is ganging up on Odile. She alleged that the reason some people don't post on certain threads is fear! I personally found that particular statement ridiculous and I'm one of those who no longer posts on the threads s/he mentioned - so I replied.
If you allow yourself to make assumptions about other peoples motives you gotta at least take into account that you might get a finger slap (Assumptions are generally a terrible thing. imo)

However, once that's settled it's back to normal procedures ..... no ganging up.
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  #282  
Old 15.01.2017, 01:32
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I totally agree but I don't think anyone is ganging up on Odile. She alleged that the reason some people don't post on certain threads is fear! I personally found that particular statement ridiculous and I'm one of those who no longer posts on the threads s/he mentioned - so I replied.
If you allow yourself to make assumptions about other peoples motives you gotta at least take into account that you might get a finger slap (Assumptions are generally a terrible thing. imo)

However, once that's settled it's back to normal procedures ..... no ganging up.
I don't exactly know if I would call her suggestion an allegation - it was more a supposition. Of course I found the statement ridiculous as well - even offensive - but still I had the impression there was quite a few posts in succession having a go.
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  #283  
Old 15.01.2017, 03:29
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Too much.
Totally agree.

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I don't think folks should gang up on anyone - including Odile.
Looks like you're new here.
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  #284  
Old 15.01.2017, 10:50
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I hate those SVP posters showing women in their hajibs because:

1. they are against women wearing niqabs which makes the poster mysogynistic.
2. 99% of Muslim women in Switzerland do not wear niqabs.
3. the SVP party is using Nazi propaganda to instill fear into the voters hearts.
4. third generation immigrants should be automatically nationalized.
5. most SVPers aren't even practising Christians themselves.
6. the SVP party is using ignorance to promote their causes

So, yeah, the poster sucks and the SVP should be ashamed for using such low tactics but they've been implementing these kind of political tactics for decades now. It's getting old, folks.

Looking at it another way, the posters are a triumph because everyone loses their tiny mind over them, they polarise opinion, divide people and everyone suddenly becomes an armchair expert. They bring out the worst in everyone.

Pretty much the proven blueprint for successful campaigning in these times. Knowledge, discussion and compromise have become dirty words cast into the bin marked 'snowflake'.
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  #285  
Old 15.01.2017, 11:05
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I don't think folks should gang up on anyone - including Odile.
I don't think she was being ganged up on in this instance ( although I agree it has been the case on other threads).
A couple of people were just refuting a supposition (or two) that she'd made and which they disagreed with.

I do think that the SVP poster discussion should be kept in the all the other threads discussing it and not dragged into this thread as well.
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  #286  
Old 15.01.2017, 11:36
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I don't exactly know if I would call her suggestion an allegation - it was more a supposition. Of course I found the statement ridiculous as well - even offensive - but still I had the impression there was quite a few posts in succession having a go.
Oh come on parnell, stop the delicate flower syndrome. Odile frequently makes utterly ridiculous and contentious claims based on her own unique interpretation of what constitutes sensible logic, and of course if she does that then multiple people are going to vocally disagree with her and put that down in writing. Multiple people strongly disagreeing does not mean they are ganging up.

Odile is a big girl, and if she is going to frequently get involved in Internet spats and debates (which she does, and at length) then she needs to accept the consequences of expressing those strong opinions.

Nothing stifles discussion on this forum like those who write mind numbingly silly mush and then claiming mobbing, bullying, ganging up or whatever term happens to be the latest fad for whoever disagrees with them. It's really a sign that said person need to get a grip on themselves and take a break from Internet forums.

Last edited by Chuff; 15.01.2017 at 12:55.
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  #287  
Old 15.01.2017, 12:19
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Oh come on parnell, stop the delicate flower syndrome. Odile frequently makes utterly ridiculous and contentious claims based on her own unique interpretation of what constitutes sensible logic, and of course if she does that then multiple people are going to vocally disagree with her and put that down in writing. Multiple people strongly disagreeing does not mean they are ganging up.
"Delicate flower syndrome"... will have to remember that one. I do agree that some people post a lot of viewpoints that hold no basis in reality but some have argued the same about some things I have written - I just think the data/observation don't support their arguments.
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  #288  
Old 15.01.2017, 12:47
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Love your posts actually but you should cut back your coffee intake a bit...
Folks, we really pay too much attention to unhappy people (Swiss or other immigrants)...I take it that finding underdogs sort of alleviates their own problems, lack of self esteem, social validation, recognition, who knows.
But I tend to believe that most Swiss are reasonable, and many even friendly with us, auslanders...

To answer the question: I do feel welcome in Switzerland, met wonderful people - both Swiss and expats/immigrants.
I don't drink coffee. Actually I find interesting that you are gently mocking my reaction to a "news" in media where numerous persons are openly and with impunity defaming/libeling some other people in a "socially challenging" situation ( call integration to Switzerland how you want, I tried to describe it decently).

Take a look just at one item, 225 comments and numerous are falsely accusing expats as not able to integrate because "they dont speak the local language", among numerous other stereotypes.

Of course while denying the real causeS ( <--- Note the S).

As example, I do speak the local language natively, and still find and entitled to say that there is something fondamentally wrong in how "native Swiss" vs "foreigners migrating or expats or invaders".

It's not only cultural but the country lack of will and implementation to actually change that.

Take the UK discrimination act for example, it would be useful in a few situations here. I'm not saying everything can be solved by law and the likes, but it could "send a message" and have some nasty behaviors corrected/prevented/punished/discouraged. It would also provide, in relevant situation, some relief to some abuses which are openly and freely comited in this country.


Well i'm not delusional, I know it won't happen or change anytime soon and I did adapted to the situation and unpleasant context, while taking the occasional "hit on the chin" (cf "invaders" comments) and smiling at the regular picks (cf: jokes, mocking on my origins).

Do I feel welcome? Definitely no.
I am unhappy about it? Not sure, probably more disappointed, surprised, and sad that most interactions are deep rooted in some nastiness (jealousy, ignorance, racism, xenophobia, hate, stereotyping...). And that these behaviors are not only coming from dumb low educated individuals, but also from some "officials".


Can I do something about it? Unless there's a significant political will, new measures and acceptance of the problems, nothing will be done. Most people doing that will likely never even admit doing wrong. There's no real law, and no easy way to get protected or do something about it.
So I just live along.
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  #289  
Old 15.01.2017, 13:03
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Great article. I remember it well. I was born in Zug to an Italian father. As you know, children born in Switzerland receive the nationality of their fathers, whatever nationality he is. Unlike in the US where you are automatically American just for being born in the US even if neither of the parents are Americans.
You remember what happened when you were eight? Mhhh, I have my doubts.
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This Schwarzenbach initiative threatened to have him and my sister and I deported. In 1973 (and perhaps before) Switzerland offered all Italians born in Switzerland to give up their Italian passports and purchase their Swiss passports for 5 Francs.
I call bullshit.

Cost of naturalisation used to depend on income and wealth ("abhängig von der wirtschaftlichen Leistungsfähigkeit") with the consequence that it was inexpensive (free?) for persons with no or very small income but that's far from "buy for 5CHF". For instance Kanton Aargau charged up to 5'000CHF on the kantonal level alone from 1992 thru 2006. The linked proposition is the consequence of a federal court verdict that outlawed then-current practice.

Also note the contradiction in what you say:
On the one hand you claim having feared deportation while you also claim you'd have been able to buy citizenship for virtually nothing.

Human memory is easily fooled.
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Old 15.01.2017, 13:13
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Take a look just at one item, 225 comments and numerous are falsely accusing expats as not able to integrate because "they dont speak the local language", among numerous other stereotypes.
As already mentioned multiple times this depends on the definition of "expat".

In the German speaking parts at least (I don't know about the Romands nor the Ticinesi) "Expat" and "knows the local language reasonably well (or at least makes an effort to that end)" are mutually exclusive.
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Old 15.01.2017, 13:20
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Odile is a big girl, and if she is going to frequently get involved in Internet spats and debates (which she does, and at length) then she needs to accept the consequences of expressing those strong opinions.
How on earth can this comment be seen as 'spat'?

'Agreed - I've always felt welcome everywhere in the world. But I can empathise with people who are different and are often NOT made to feel welcome, here or anywhere, again, and again.

How would you feel as a Muslim, of an East European when confronted with those huge SVP posters as you arrive at Zuri station?
'

tell me really?!

Apart from that, you are right, I am a big girl and have not complained.

Find it difficult how anyone could state that there is not an increasing number of vociforous pro SVP and obcessively anti-Islam, pro Trump, number of posters
on EF, who are rarely challenged these days- as said above, because it is same old, same old- and flogging a dead horse. But you are right- time for a break from EF- I have so many much more enjoyable and fruitful things to do.

Everyone knows on EF that there is a small cluster to posters who jump on my back post after post - so many have contacted me, by pm, e-mail and person to person to tell me to complain about it- which I wouldn't dream of doing.
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Old 15.01.2017, 13:26
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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As already mentioned multiple times this depends on the definition of "expat".

In the German speaking parts at least (I don't know about the Romands nor the Ticinesi) "Expat" and "knows the local language reasonably well (or at least makes an effort to that end)" are mutually exclusive.
I guess that's close to the truth if you work in a multinational and/or banking bubble but I've worked for small and Swiss companies where the 'expats' nearly all hit B2 and beyond in their German.

Others I know already speak French and English, as well as other languages so find that speaking one Swiss language gets them through.

If you are working 40+ hours a week on a limited contract and your job is 100% in your mothertongue there's neither time nor incentive to learn a language. I only managed it because first I wasn't working and then got a baptism of fire working for a Swiss company.
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  #293  
Old 15.01.2017, 13:26
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Everyone knows on EF that there is a small cluster to posters who jump on my back post after post - so many have contacted me, by pm, e-mail and person to person to tell me to complain about it- which I wouldn't dream of doing.
Sure Odile, you're a saint and never at fault, and I'm sure it's nothing to do with some of your strongly worded opinions, often based on political views that you shoehorn into conversations, not being agreeable to people.

Those nasty SVP, Muslim-hating fanatics... they're everywhere. Trust no-one.
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  #294  
Old 15.01.2017, 13:35
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Find it difficult how anyone could state that there is not an increasing number of vociforous pro SVP and obcessively anti-Islam, pro Trump, number of posters
Good. This wouldn't be a terribly interesting community if we all followed the same brand of politics like some article of faith.
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Old 15.01.2017, 13:39
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

It's a forum. They're vociferous by definition, aren't they? If you want unadulterated flattery and saccharine platitudes then there is always FB.
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Old 15.01.2017, 13:40
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Find it difficult how anyone could state that there is not an increasing number of vociforous pro SVP and obcessively anti-Islam, pro Trump, number of posters on EF, who are rarely challenged these days
Perhaps they are just better educated than those who don't share their opinions?

Tom
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Old 15.01.2017, 13:42
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

I'm just wondering whether k_and_e is going to get an apology for being called an islamophobe?
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Old 15.01.2017, 13:42
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Can I do something about it? Unless there's a significant political will, new measures and acceptance of the problems, nothing will be done. Most people doing that will likely never even admit doing wrong. There's no real law, and no easy way to get protected or do something about it.
So I just live along.
You're suggesting we need a law or some thing to make the Swiss more welcoming?

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Old 15.01.2017, 14:24
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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There is a small bunch of you on EF who are more and more vocal in your anti-Islam views and SVP/UDC/LEGA support and few dare counter your posts for fear of being groaned or worse. As said, time to sign off at least for a while. Enough of your vile bile.

Shame on EF for colluding by their silence.
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How on earth can this comment be seen as 'spat'?

'Agreed - I've always felt welcome everywhere in the world. But I can empathise with people who are different and are often NOT made to feel welcome, here or anywhere, again, and again.

How would you feel as a Muslim, of an East European when confronted with those huge SVP posters as you arrive at Zuri station?
'

tell me really?!


Find it difficult how anyone could state that there is not an increasing number of vociforous pro SVP and obcessively anti-Islam, pro Trump, number of posters
on EF, who are rarely challenged these days- as said above, because it is same old, same old- and flogging a dead horse. But you are right- time for a break from EF- I have so many much more enjoyable and fruitful things to do.
Seriously Odile you can be quite obtuse at times. You made more than one post on here so choosing that one innocuous post to illustrate your point is pretty daft.
You can't make statements like the one in bold above and not expect people to react. You are basically accusing everyone on EF who doesn't publically come out and challenge a few extreme posters who just make the same old arguments over and over again as supporting their point of view. That is quite frankly insulting to the majority of posters on here.

I'm not afraid of anyone and couldn't give a stuff about thanks or groans or red rep or whatever but I feel the same as Curley. What is the point in going round and round in circles saying the same things over and over again? It's not useful, it's not interesting and it's not really very informative so for the most part I just choose to ignore it and let them get on with it. I'm sure there are many others who do exactly the same.

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I totally agree but I don't think anyone is ganging up on Odile. She alleged that the reason some people don't post on certain threads is fear! I personally found that particular statement ridiculous and I'm one of those who no longer posts on the threads s/he mentioned - so I replied.
If you allow yourself to make assumptions about other peoples motives you gotta at least take into account that you might get a finger slap (Assumptions are generally a terrible thing. imo)

However, once that's settled it's back to normal procedures ..... no ganging up.

As for the increasingly large numbers of SVP supporters, anti Islam posters, pro Trump supporters I can't say that I've particularly noticed an increase. It seems to me to still be the same old ones repeating the same old arguments. They are current news topics so it's normal that there is a lot of discussion about them.

Tom is the only pro SVP poster that has caught my eye but as far as I'm concerned he falls into the 'special' category (in the French sense of the word) and I take most of his posts with a large pinch of salt anyway.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 15.01.2017 at 14:42.
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Old 15.01.2017, 14:38
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

Trump was a non-issue on this side of the big pond until perhaps one year ago. It's nothing but logical that the number of posts on him have been increasing since, both for and against.
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