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Old 15.01.2017, 15:34
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Tom is the only pro SVP poster that has caught my eye but as far as I'm concerned he falls into the 'special' category (in the French sense of the word) and I take most of his posts with a large pinch of salt anyway.
As far I can tell Tom is not especially pro-SVP but pro-Swiss - his views are aligned with the best long term interests of the Swiss and their country's economy. In that sense he is one of the best integrated people and a model for others.
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  #302  
Old 15.01.2017, 15:42
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I guess that's close to the truth if you work in a multinational and/or banking bubble but I've worked for small and Swiss companies where the 'expats' nearly all hit B2 and beyond in their German.

Others I know already speak French and English, as well as other languages so find that speaking one Swiss language gets them through.
B2 disqualifies them for "Expat" (capital E). From that 20min article linked in #238:
"Von Expats, die oft befristete Verträge hätten, könne man nicht erwarten, dass sie an jeder Station eine neue Sprache lernten."

That's where demands and expectations collide. This probably didn't matter while numbers were small, but sooner or later what may be interesting or even exciting at first will turn into an annoyance or worse.
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If you are working 40+ hours a week on a limited contract and your job is 100% in your mothertongue there's neither time nor incentive to learn a language. I only managed it because first I wasn't working and then got a baptism of fire working for a Swiss company.
If the other isn't interested in getting to know you your personal motives and reasons will never be known. And frankly (generally speaking, I'm not talking about you personally), some random foreigner who approaches me with the expectation that I cater to his/her demands and whims is much more likely to push me off rather than raise my interest - I don't owe you bloody anything, you're welcome to stick your dollars right up there where the sun never shines TYVM.

OTOH an "Entschuldigung bitte I'm looking for ..." will open many a door even if the first two words happen to be barely recognizable.
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  #303  
Old 15.01.2017, 16:06
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

I think the shift to the "new" right which we're going to see in Europe over the next decade or so is going to serve as a harsh reminder to some of us foreigners just how privileged we are to be able to live in somebody else's country at all.

There is more than a slight whiff of entitlement about some of the posts we read on EF - even, if I'm truly honest, from some of my own earlier posts on the forum. Ten years ago money trumped all other considerations. Nowadays, I'm not so sure. I see other values coming back, values which can't be paid off with dollars or euros.

It's likely to be a rough ride for all of us - even those of us who think we're above such things.
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  #304  
Old 15.01.2017, 16:18
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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As far I can tell Tom is not especially pro-SVP but pro-Swiss - his views are aligned with the best long term interests of the Swiss and their country's economy. In that sense he is one of the best integrated people and a model for others.
If you say so, yeah. I would think 30 yrs in a country makes one integrated one way or another. I think the fascilitated 3rd gen naturalisation will not push them more in the local culture, but will push the local culture more towards general world trends. I think this proposal helps the kids who's parents were too busy, and is a prep step for whatever other proposals will be clamping on soon after.

If Tom is a role model, then Odile is a role model of a pretty sweet and openminded local. Thanks for saying you are pretty much ashamed of the low quality SVP campaign, O. I know other locals who are. It is not you doing it, so do not be ashamed

As per those expats who keep calling you names and obtuse, well - they haven't left their manners behind, have they, as it has been mentioned here before.

Glad you are hanging with us, knowing you from real life, we can always use a local pov. I often disagree but do not see you on a high horse, those who want - will see you there. As per your perceiced "white woman's priviledges", that pseudo lib schtick made me laugh. I disagree with that, as much as I disagree with O's opinions every now and then. Will the community intepret this as an opressed EE's view, OstBlocked, or another white chick's pov, or a Jewish one? Gasp.

The arguments - typical EF.

If folks are taking time here to chip in, make it count.
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Old 15.01.2017, 16:24
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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If you say so, yeah. I would think 30 yrs in a country makes one integrated one way or another. I think the fascilitated 3rd gen naturalisation will not push them more in the local culture, but will push the local culture more towards general world trends. I think this proposal helps the kids who's parents were too busy, and is a prep step for whatever other proposals will be clamping on soon after.

If Tom is a role model, then Odile is a role model of a pretty sweet and openminded local. Thanks for saying you are pretty much ashamed of the low quality SVP campaign, O. I know other locals who are. It is not you doing it, so do not be ashamed

As per those expats who keep calling you names and obtuse, well - they haven't left their manners behind, have they, as it has been mentioned here before.

Glad you are hanging with us, knowing you from real life, we can always use a local pov. I often disagree but do not see you on a high horse, those who want - will see you there. As per your perceiced "white woman's priviledges", that pseudo lib schtick made me laugh. I disagree with that, as much as I disagree with O's opinions every now and then. Will the community intepret this as an opressed EE's view, OstBlocked, or another white chick's pov, or a Jewish one? Gasp.

The arguments - typical EF.

If folks are taking time here to chip in, make it count.
... and this person is a moderator.
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  #306  
Old 15.01.2017, 16:25
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I think the shift to the "new" right which we're going to see in Europe over the next decade or so is going to serve as a harsh reminder to some of us foreigners just how privileged we are to be able to live in somebody else's country at all.

There is more than a slight whiff of entitlement about some of the posts we read on EF - even, if I'm truly honest, from some of my own earlier posts on the forum. Ten years ago money trumped all other considerations. Nowadays, I'm not so sure. I see other values coming back, values which can't be paid off with dollars or euros.

It's likely to be a rough ride for all of us - even those of us who think we're above such things.
I do not think so, actually. I have a feeling it will be hard for those who feel entitled. Local, foreign or not.
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Old 15.01.2017, 16:29
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I do not think so, actually.
You don't think foreigners are going to have a hard time as the continent swings to the right?

I wish I had your optimism.
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  #308  
Old 15.01.2017, 16:46
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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If you say so, yeah. I would think 30 yrs in a country makes one integrated one way or another. I think the fascilitated 3rd gen naturalisation will not push them more in the local culture, but will push the local culture more towards general world trends. I think this proposal helps the kids who's parents were too busy, and is a prep step for whatever other proposals will be clamping on soon after.

If Tom is a role model, then Odile is a role model of a pretty sweet and openminded local. Thanks for saying you are pretty much ashamed of the low quality SVP campaign, O. I know other locals who are. It is not you doing it, so do not be ashamed

As per those expats who keep calling you names and obtuse, well - they haven't left their manners behind, have they, as it has been mentioned here before.

Glad you are hanging with us, knowing you from real life, we can always use a local pov. I often disagree but do not see you on a high horse, those who want - will see you there. As per your perceiced "white woman's priviledges", that pseudo lib schtick made me laugh. I disagree with that, as much as I disagree with O's opinions every now and then. Will the community intepret this as an opressed EE's view, OstBlocked, or another white chick's pov, or a Jewish one? Gasp.

The arguments - typical EF.

If folks are taking time here to chip in, make it count.
Gah.

Chipping in sounds petty. Not sure where the "pseudo-lib schtick" was. As for the rest of it, I know you're a mod and all, MusicChick, but really?

I was mildly irritated before, now I'm properly peed off. Going to walk the dog.
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Old 15.01.2017, 16:59
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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If folks are taking time here to chip in, make it count.
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I do not think so, actually. I have a feeling it will be hard for those who feel entitled. Local, foreign or not.
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You don't think foreigners are going to have a hard time as the continent swings to the right?

I wish I had your optimism.
Having it "hard" is a relative and subjective opinion that is driven more by attitude than anything. I think it will simply compel people to a change of attitude. Some may even look back and realize they squandered the good 'ol days complaining and grovelling. Others can handle it maturely and realistically, then continue to have a great time. YMMV.
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Old 15.01.2017, 17:08
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

I just wonder...Why would I care whether I'm welcomed or not? Why would I have that notion of being welcomed or not? Why would I care someone else's opinion? I wouldn't "gaze long into an abyss" that which could consume me.
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  #311  
Old 15.01.2017, 17:08
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

I certainly find increasingly more evidence of the far left losing their footing and wonder if it is in part to do with the denial that liberal governments have brought us to where we are now: knocking loudly on the door of the far right. Austerity married globalization and it got us nowhere.. well, got us to a scarier place and a different future awaits (agree with DB here).

The tolerance which the far left have always held up as their shining star is now being used as a stick to beat the crap out of anyone who thinks/speaks from a different point of view. That in itself is scary, as if the left can justify their emotional violence because their argument is better. I really hope we are not racing towards a future where objectivity becomes the casualty.

Stop the insults and respect the poster. Argue the argument, not insult the individuals or a large group of EFers because they choose not to wade in on every thread.
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  #312  
Old 15.01.2017, 17:29
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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The tolerance which the far left have always held up as their shining star is now being used as a stick to beat the crap out of anyone who thinks/speaks from a different point of view.
Speaking as someone who has always been in favour of well-managed immigration (that is, nothing like we've seen in Western Europe for the last twenty years), I've been arguing this for years.

I grew up in an "Old Left" working class district, and later moved on to work and socialise amongst "New Left" types who nowadays tend to be labelled "Liberals". The latter only mix amongst themselves, have very little contact with "the working classes" outside a professional context, and have identical opinions about Conservative voters, Daily Mail readers, white van drivers, hard-working mums and coloured people. Often burdened with the best of intentions, they are all - without exception - horribly patronising, slightly racist and very, very snobbish, but - crucially - are completely unaware of this.

I used to argue till I was blue in the face that their ridiculous attitude towards ordinary voters was going to end in tears. I could see which way the wind was blowing, but they couldn't. I tried to make them see how the world looks to someone who grew up in Victoria Street alongside Mr Brown and Mrs Jones and Mr Green only to see her road turn into a suburb of Islamabad, complete with loudspeakers playing the azan every Friday. "Oh, you're one of them," they would say, rolling their eyes. "No!" I'd respond, in frustration, "I recognise that immigration is necessary, BUT DON'T YOU THINK WE OUGHT TO DO A BETTER JOB OF MANAGING IT AND EXPLAINING IT BEFORE IT ALL ENDS IN TEARS???"

But who was I amongst all these "experts"? Just some gobby Yam Yam who was probably racist too but just wouldn't admit it. They knew best. They always knew best.

And now look at the state we're in. They did this. Not the Tories. Not UKIP. Not the BNP. Nope. It was the well-meaning but slightly stupid representatives of the "New Left" who understood nothing of human nature or of the culture of their own people. They did this.

And all of us are going to pay. Every last one of us.

And people wonder why I'm so bloody angry?
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  #313  
Old 15.01.2017, 17:32
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

Great post DB but you'll be pilloried for it.
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  #314  
Old 15.01.2017, 17:33
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Great post DB but you'll be pilloried for it.
Good. When I'm in a minority, it usually means I'm right.
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Old 15.01.2017, 18:02
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

Normally, one receives a "You're welcome!" after one says, "Thank you!".

So I wonder if some gratitude for being here is a contributing factor to feeling welcomed.
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Old 15.01.2017, 18:11
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I just wonder...Why would I care whether I'm welcomed or not? Why would I have that notion of being welcomed or not? Why would I care someone else's opinion? I wouldn't "gaze long into an abyss" that which could consume me.
You seem suspitiously happy. I am sure people are already listing your priviledges you are hiding or you did not even know about!

Congrats, btw. I agree with you. Aside of the fact we really are surrounded by welcoming spirit, I wonder if it is a matter of our filters.
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Old 15.01.2017, 19:06
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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As per those expats who keep calling you names and obtuse, well - they haven't left their manners behind, have they, as it has been mentioned here before.
Actually I find it rather richt to criticize posters for their lack of manners after Odile insulted pretty much everybody on here in one sweeping statement.
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  #318  
Old 15.01.2017, 21:51
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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How would you feel as a Muslim, of an East European when confronted with those huge SVP posters as you arrive at Zuri station?
That damned thing was straight facing me when I came up the lift the other day. It's bloody disgusting and if I was with guests from the UK, I'd be utterly ashamed.

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how would you feel as a Christian in a muslim country.
Do you want to know how I feel in any religious country as an atheist?

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I hate those SVP posters showing women in their hajibs because:...
The first thing that hits me is the very simple graphics, kept simple so as not to detract from the *ahem* colour scheme?
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  #319  
Old 15.01.2017, 22:09
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Tom is the only pro SVP poster that has caught my eye
I am certainly NOT pro SVP, rather I am anti the SVP haters.

Can't think of any SVP people I've ever voted for, for starts.

And, as I previously mentioned, my only Facebook friend who is a politician (Swiss or otherwise) is the former head of the Swiss Socialist party.

Tom
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  #320  
Old 15.01.2017, 22:15
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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If Tom is a role model, then Odile is a role model of a pretty sweet and openminded local.
Except that she's not a local.

She's from the north, so not remotely local.

Locals speak Italian.

Tom
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