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Old 16.01.2017, 08:12
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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And I've even voted for PS stuff once or twice.

I also voted for BillC. and Ronnie.

Go figure.
We've all voted in ways that in retrospect we now classify as 'WTF'. When I first became eligible to vote, in my first election I voted for Cicciolina.
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  #342  
Old 16.01.2017, 09:13
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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at my first erection I voted for Cicciolina.
FTFY!

Tom
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  #343  
Old 16.01.2017, 09:36
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I don't drink coffee. Actually I find interesting that you are gently mocking my reaction to a "news" in media where numerous persons are openly and with impunity defaming/libeling some other people in a "socially challenging" situation ( call integration to Switzerland how you want, I tried to describe it decently).

Take a look just at one item, 225 comments and numerous are falsely accusing expats as not able to integrate because "they dont speak the local language", among numerous other stereotypes.

Of course while denying the real causeS ( <--- Note the S).

As example, I do speak the local language natively, and still find and entitled to say that there is something fondamentally wrong in how "native Swiss" vs "foreigners migrating or expats or invaders".

It's not only cultural but the country lack of will and implementation to actually change that.

Take the UK discrimination act for example, it would be useful in a few situations here. I'm not saying everything can be solved by law and the likes, but it could "send a message" and have some nasty behaviors corrected/prevented/punished/discouraged. It would also provide, in relevant situation, some relief to some abuses which are openly and freely comited in this country.


Well i'm not delusional, I know it won't happen or change anytime soon and I did adapted to the situation and unpleasant context, while taking the occasional "hit on the chin" (cf "invaders" comments) and smiling at the regular picks (cf: jokes, mocking on my origins).

Do I feel welcome? Definitely no.
I am unhappy about it? Not sure, probably more disappointed, surprised, and sad that most interactions are deep rooted in some nastiness (jealousy, ignorance, racism, xenophobia, hate, stereotyping...). And that these behaviors are not only coming from dumb low educated individuals, but also from some "officials".


Can I do something about it? Unless there's a significant political will, new measures and acceptance of the problems, nothing will be done. Most people doing that will likely never even admit doing wrong. There's no real law, and no easy way to get protected or do something about it.
So I just live along.
Sorry, but what did you expect when you moved here? Open arms? I didn't, even though we came here as "expats". I didn't expect much in terms of "local friendliness" (or openess for instance) and I was pleasantly surprised. I know it's not a good thing to relativise but I have been following the Western media for quite some years now and I know the trend re. immigration, convenient scapegoats etc etc.
Call me naive, but I still believe Switzerland is not such a bad place for foreigners. I had my "wtf" moments here, rest assured.
Let's leave USA, Canada or Australia out of discussion, I was referring only to Europe. It is what it is and I choose to mind my own business, do my own projects. I don't live for random people and I don't expect them to particularly like me.
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  #344  
Old 16.01.2017, 09:58
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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When I first became eligible to vote, in my first election I voted for Cicciolina.
She was the stuff of legend though, thanks to 'Eurotrash'. I was always phased by her bushy eyebrows and teddy bears.
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  #345  
Old 16.01.2017, 11:22
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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She was the stuff of legend though, thanks to 'Eurotrash'. I was always phased by her bushy eyebrows and teddy bears.
My memories of her are as a teenager surreptitiously looking at the top shelf of giornalai.
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  #346  
Old 16.01.2017, 11:37
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Sorry, but what did you expect when you moved here? Open arms? I didn't, even though we came here as "expats". I didn't expect much in terms of "local friendliness" (or openess for instance) and I was pleasantly surprised. I know it's not a good thing to relativise but I have been following the Western media for quite some years now and I know the trend re. immigration, convenient scapegoats etc etc.
Call me naive, but I still believe Switzerland is not such a bad place for foreigners. I had my "wtf" moments here, rest assured.
Let's leave USA, Canada or Australia out of discussion, I was referring only to Europe. It is what it is and I choose to mind my own business, do my own projects. I don't live for random people and I don't expect them to particularly like me.
"expectations".... I expected that since I came legally, with work permit that I will be treated like any other citizen without any discrimination based on my origins, nationality and to an extend my "non Swissness".
A bit like in the UK, even if, it was not always "transparent", it was to a much lesser extend.

I also don't expect people to particularly like me, in fact, did I ever show signs of will to be liked by others?
what you seems to blend nicely is "being liked" and "being respected/tolerated/treated equally".
So yes, I am not Bambi and I was always expected some level or rejection and integration efforts by my side, along with tolerance to low level of picking and bantering on my origins.
What I did not expect is such level of discrete discrimination, the numerous comments and difficulties in administration based on my origin, the blatant and obvious discrimination in housing based on my origin (and yes, enhanced due to very low availability of flats, scarcity tends to call for human nastiness), differentiation in numerous business (like paying 40% more insurance because i'm French and not Swiss), extra difficulties and different treatment in taxes, and still being not considered equal after numerous years for basic citizen actions (voting, etc...).


To make it simple I never expected to have someone welcoming me with open arms. From experiences I knew that I would be the one to have to diplomatically and nicely make myself accepted. What I did not expected is to be repetitively being treated differently and negatively solely based on nationality, especially for that long period of time.
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  #347  
Old 16.01.2017, 11:41
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I am from India and i have never ever felt unwelcome here. The people here are very friendly and welcoming. The only problem i face here is the language and i am working on it..


Abhilasha
That's because you probably don't understand everything

You'd see a whole new world, if you did.

What's the saying again "blessed are the ignorants"?
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  #348  
Old 16.01.2017, 12:34
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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That's because you probably don't understand everything

You'd see a whole new world, if you did.

What's the saying again "blessed are the ignorants"?

He simply has a better positive attitude, and you call him ignorant? Maybe you ought to indulge in your own misery on your own.
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  #349  
Old 16.01.2017, 12:40
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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He simply has a better positive attitude, and you call him ignorant? Maybe you ought to indulge in your own misery on your own.
Or he simply is in "honeymoon period" or like I said, he "probably" don't understand everything.

BTW, that was a gentle banter. Something which CLEARLY not working well with many people.

And I wish myself that I would not understand everything in Switzerland, as I would feel much better and positive indeed.

See I will take the groan positively as a token for your own ignorance of banter, and your alleged denial of reality (since my banter could be probably true).
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  #350  
Old 16.01.2017, 12:54
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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He simply has a better positive attitude, and you call him ignorant? Maybe you ought to indulge in your own misery on your own.
And take that better attitude, based on FACTS.

Mister, From India, if he were Swiss would have to pay for a car insurance in Switzerland 633.90 CHF /Year for a given set of options.
But because Mister is having Indian nationality, with the identical set of options, Mister has to pay 1423CHF.

A mere 2.24 times more simply due to nationality.

Now I hear you saying what has to do with "welcomingness"?
To me that's a drop in the overall attitude towards foreigner in Switzerland.
Sure, one could mildly demonstrate that it's has to do with insurances, it's private system etc... Yet not much is being done against that by authorities.

Even Swiss consumer protection are calling that discrimination since many years, yet nothing changes.

Again, this is a drop if that were only the only one "incident" that would be different.

I have tons of other examples, but I will rather indulge in my own misery now instead of explaining what's wrong. Especially that people don't like to hear when things are wrong, that is not PC or positive enough.
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  #351  
Old 16.01.2017, 12:58
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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And take that better attitude, based on FACTS.

Mister, From India, if he were Swiss would have to pay for a car insurance in Switzerland 633.90 CHF /Year for a given set of options.
But because Mister is having Indian nationality, with the identical set of options, Mister has to pay 1423CHF.

A mere 2.24 times more simply due to nationality.


That´s not typical Swiss, happens in a lot of other countries as well. A question of their risk profile for certain countries. I´d think that insurance for some of the former Eastblock countries is even worse?
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  #352  
Old 16.01.2017, 13:10
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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That´s not typical Swiss, happens in a lot of other countries as well. A question of their risk profile for certain countries. I´d think that insurance for some of the former Eastblock countries is even worse?
It's another topic isn't?
Also I specified myself that but you did not quote that part, that it was " a drop" in the jug of water of other problems, something you missed?

As for "it's happening elsewhere" that does not make it right.

Also, which countries are you talking about because that practice is forbidden in EU entirely since many years. Were you referring to what is happening Yugoslavia?

So I repeat my opinion, I don't find that any welcoming. If only Swiss authorities were interested to make a move for legal migrants, that sort of practice from another century would have disappeared already.



*yes, I know yugoslavia does not exist anymore, that was a poke.
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  #353  
Old 16.01.2017, 13:24
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I expected that since I came legally, with work permit that I will be treated like any other citizen without any discrimination based on my origins, nationality and to an extend my "non Swissness".
I think I've found the place you thought you were moving to:


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  #354  
Old 16.01.2017, 13:29
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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I think I've found the place you thought you were moving to:


HEIDI land!

PS: does that black individual on the lower left has some authorization to stay in Heidiland?

PS2: Child work on the lower right, not pretty....

PS3: There's a GINGER in the bottow of the picture, seriously???

PS4: The Asian on the bottom left is dressed in stereotypical negative view of Chinese, I do find that offending.

PS5: The black dude on the right is "ain't doing nothing", that's racial profiling for saying he's lazy.

PS6: The kids haven't tagged their animals, where shall I report them?

Seems like a great place to live in!
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  #355  
Old 16.01.2017, 16:23
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

Looks more like a Jehovas Witness leaflet to me.
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  #356  
Old 16.01.2017, 16:33
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Looks more like a Jehovas Witness leaflet to me.
First time I saw the poster I hadn't got my specs on: couldn't understand why Darth Vader was on a campaign poster...
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  #357  
Old 16.01.2017, 17:43
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Even Swiss consumer protection are calling that discrimination since many years, yet nothing changes.
Can it be discrimination if it's based on *facts?

*of course this relies on the insurance's claim, AFAIK their data are propietary
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  #358  
Old 16.01.2017, 18:06
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Can it be discrimination if it's based on *facts?

*of course this relies on the insurance's claim, AFAIK their data are propietary
Well FACTS are showing that women have more accident than men or something similar which led to insurances making pay high premium to women*.

That's a fact and that's data collected and owned by car insurances companies.

Yet, that was discrimination (gender based) and something has been done about it, and it's now illegal (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-11-1581_en.htm).
Ok it's illegal in Europe, not sure in Switzerland, again it's irrelevant for that comment.


*after reading more the details it appears it was the opposite, than male were making more accidents and paying more. I left it as it is because I found that was amusing that I was wrong in that context, and because it's irrelevant to the point: It was some discrimination based on facts anyway.
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  #359  
Old 16.01.2017, 18:25
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Well FACTS are showing that women have more accident than men or something similar which led to insurances making pay high premium to women*.
Not similar, the opposite. More correctly men make larger car insurance claims (fewer, but more expensive, accidents than women), which led to an entire insurance market targeting female drivers. This gender based discrimination was finally made illegal in the EU a few years ago, with much grumbling from feminist groups.

Of course discrimination based on gender and any other criteria is perfectly legal here. Women will pay higher premiums for health insurance, for example.

Or, segwaying back to the topic of this thread, your car insurance will be affected by your nationality. Swiss naturally have the lowest costs, Western Europeans slightly higher and less said of what former Yugoslavs pay, the better...
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  #360  
Old 17.01.2017, 00:22
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Of course discrimination based on gender and any other criteria is perfectly legal here. Women will pay higher premiums for health insurance, for example.
That definition of discrimination means every decision that involves another human is discriminatory (Ok, only 99.999%); it's impossible to not be mostly discriminatory.

As a consequence at best it's useless.

In my book discrimination requires unjustified disadvantage, typically based on prejudice. You're not discriminatory if facts support your stance.
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