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  #361  
Old 17.01.2017, 00:54
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Of course discrimination based on gender and any other criteria is perfectly legal here. Women will pay higher premiums for health insurance, for example.
And I sure wonder what that is based on! If it's on pregnancy etc. it's BS as in every pregnancy there's a male involved. If it's on the statistics that we live longer .... well we need to be healthier to live longer, no?!

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Or, segwaying back to the topic of this thread, your car insurance will be affected by your nationality. Swiss naturally have the lowest costs, Western Europeans slightly higher and less said of what former Yugoslavs pay, the better...
When I first heard that concerning the former Yugoslavs I was outraged. (In fact I notice, I still am just now). That is definitely racism and I am still shocked that insurances are even allowed to do that.

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In my book discrimination requires unjustified disadvantage, typically based on prejudice. You're not discriminatory if facts support your stance.
If insurances come up with some statistics that formar Yugoslavs caused more accidents than other people and then simply charge ALL of them a higher price, yes it is discrimination.
Why not charge all Americans higher health insurance because they must be obese - I mean statistics prove that. You know what I mean?
And when I look at all these Germans, yep, definitely double premiums.....
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  #362  
Old 17.01.2017, 01:37
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

Switzerland will be as welcoming of you as you are of it, and it is your responsibility to make the first move. You can either accept that fact or not, but you will never change it.
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  #363  
Old 17.01.2017, 08:44
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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That definition of discrimination means every decision that involves another human is discriminatory (Ok, only 99.999%); it's impossible to not be mostly discriminatory.

As a consequence at best it's useless.
All decisions, choices, are ultimately discriminatory. The question is whether that discrimination is rational or justified. And if we cannot be allowed to discriminate or even discuss if any discrimination is rational or justified and realize this is pretty foobar, then I think you might be getting my opinion on political correctness.
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  #364  
Old 17.01.2017, 09:28
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Why not charge all Americans higher health insurance because they must be obese - I mean statistics prove that. You know what I mean?
And when I look at all these Germans, yep, definitely double premiums.....
But it only applies according to some geographical (read GDP per capita or similar "rationalities") criteria you see... which is why the whole "discrimination can be rational" nonsense it's not even worth discussing.
But by all means...

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If insurances come up with some statistics that formar Yugoslavs caused more accidents than other people and then simply charge ALL of them a higher price, yes it is discrimination.
Not to mention that the same person can gain a different passport based on which various insurance rates will be modified accordingly....see what I mean?

Last edited by greenmount; 17.01.2017 at 09:40.
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  #365  
Old 17.01.2017, 09:41
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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If insurances come up with some statistics that formar Yugoslavs caused more accidents than other people and then simply charge ALL of them a higher price, yes it is discrimination.
Why not charge all Americans higher health insurance because they must be obese - I mean statistics prove that. You know what I mean?
And when I look at all these Germans, yep, definitely double premiums.....
there is actually an individual assessment for health insurance.
not sure how that would work for a car insurance. that risk is more complicated to assess.
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  #366  
Old 17.01.2017, 09:46
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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there is actually an individual assessment for health insurance.
not sure how that would work for a car insurance. that risk is more complicated to assess.
Really? Why is that? Why personal driving history is less valid?
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  #367  
Old 17.01.2017, 09:52
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Really? Why is that? Why personal driving history is less valid?
the history is valid. you need to report accidents etc in the previous 5 years when applying.
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  #368  
Old 17.01.2017, 09:54
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

Insurance does not discriminate - you pay a fee to protect yourself against risk. As an individual you are not equipped to measure that risk adequately.

In the case of car insurance - if you own a red Ford Focus - your premium may rise if:
- someone of a similar age makes a claim
- someone from the same area makes a claim
- someone from the same country makes a claim
- someone with a Ford Focus makes a claim
- someone with a red car makes a claim
- someone of the same sex makes a claim
- someone with the same driving record makes a claim

Discrimination would occur if you were denied insurance solely because you were black, of Arabic extraction, from Albania or gay. You'll always find insurance however the price you pay may be much higher because you are a higher risk.

If historically men under 21 years old, of Eastern European extraction driving VW Golfs make more, and more expensive, claims than a woman aged 55 or over, of Swiss extraction driving a Mercedes.
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  #369  
Old 17.01.2017, 09:59
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Well FACTS are showing that women have more accident than men or something similar which led to insurances making pay high premium to women*.

That's a fact and that's data collected and owned by car insurances companies.
Actually the FACTS show that cars insured by women declare more accidents. That does not necessarily mean that a woman was driving the car at the time of the accident.
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  #370  
Old 17.01.2017, 10:00
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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the history is valid. you need to report accidents etc in the previous 5 years when applying.
Yes, and the insurance rate is still higher for some people, all other factors equal. What was your point again?
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  #371  
Old 17.01.2017, 10:11
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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And I sure wonder what that is based on! If it's on pregnancy etc. it's BS as in every pregnancy there's a male involved. If it's on the statistics that we live longer .... well we need to be healthier to live longer, no?!
I'd have thought that was pretty obvious. The health insurance companies have statistics for every single insured individual. It's pretty simple to analyse those and work out which statistical groups cost more (and therefore to know that women cost more on average). However given the collective and compulsory nature of the Swiss health insurance system (meaning, for example, that high risk old people pay no more than low risk 40 year olds) here I feel that a discriminatory charge is not justified.

BTW statistically women DO cost more.

However for car insurance, which is not compulsory (no-one forces you to own a car) I have no problem with differential premiums as long as they are based on purely objective statistical criteria. Be that lower premiums for women or higher premiums for Balkans.
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  #372  
Old 17.01.2017, 10:17
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Yes, and the insurance rate is still higher for some people, all other factors equal. What was your point again?
as said, you cannot do a full individual assessment on future risk for each individual driver. therefore, you use statistics.

but let me counter the question: imagine you had a car insurance company. how would you set a premium, keeping in mind that you should be profitable?
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  #373  
Old 17.01.2017, 11:00
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Discrimination would occur if you were denied insurance solely because you were black, of Arabic extraction, from Albania or gay.
So charging someone more for their insurance solely because they were black, etc is not discrimination because they're not being denied that insurance?

Problem is there appear to be two definitions for the term Discrimination:
  1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
  2. recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
Men cost car insurance companies more. Women cost health insurance companies more. In both cases the insurance company could charge more to these people solely based upon gender. This would be prejudicial treatment, but would it be unjust?
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  #374  
Old 17.01.2017, 14:47
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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So charging someone more for their insurance solely because they were black, etc is not discrimination because they're not being denied that insurance?
No. It's Ok because his cohort causes increased costs.
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  #375  
Old 17.01.2017, 14:54
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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So charging someone more for their insurance solely because they were black, etc is not discrimination because they're not being denied that insurance?
What about it being discrimination and it being ok - for precisely the reason that Urs gave - which is exactly my entire thesis - those who give rise to greater societal costs should bear those costs - and similar arguments hold true when it comes to looking at all forms of immigration.
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  #376  
Old 17.01.2017, 15:08
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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No. It's Ok because his cohort causes increased costs.
Then discriminating against women of childbearing age in job interviews is OK because of the increased costs that demographic brings with it?
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What about it being discrimination and it being ok - for precisely the reason that Urs gave - which is exactly my entire thesis - those who give rise to greater societal costs should bear those costs - and similar arguments hold true when it comes to looking at all forms of immigration.
Please see above.
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Old 17.01.2017, 15:08
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

We've only been here for 16 months, I have never felt unwelcome by anyone. Our Swiss neighbours are all lovely as well as any people we have met out and about.
We are brought a range of Swiss cakes, farm eggs and bread on a regular basis, and when I had my baby, our neighbours (4 other families) all took turns in cooking us dinner for 2 weeks. We host them at us, and us at them at least once a month.
The people in our village are very friendly and will often stop to chat. Once they hear me butchering French they generally switch to English unless they cant speak it ... in that case we bumble along with my awful French.
I know our experience is not that of a lot of other people, but I think the Swiss are divine.

I haven't read through the whole post, so apologies if my response is now off topic.
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  #378  
Old 17.01.2017, 16:08
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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Then discriminating against women of childbearing age in job interviews is OK because of the increased costs that demographic brings with it?
Don't ask rhetorical questions if you expect a meaningful reply.

I give you a hint nonetheless:
Think about the differences between biological facts and the necessities arising therefrom vs willful decisions and their consequences.
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  #379  
Old 17.01.2017, 17:23
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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But it only applies according to some geographical (read GDP per capita or similar "rationalities") criteria you see... which is why the whole "discrimination can be rational" nonsense it's not even worth discussing.
But by all means...

Not to mention that the same person can gain a different passport based on which various insurance rates will be modified accordingly....see what I mean?
If "see what I mean" means that you're basically agreeing with me, I see it.
If not, no I don't.
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  #380  
Old 17.01.2017, 17:35
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Re: Do you feel unwelcome in Switzerland?

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We are brought a range of Swiss cakes,...,on a regular basis,...
Oh god, certainly a paradise
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