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  #41  
Old 10.10.2017, 22:10
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

Here's a rule that should be applied everywhere.

Kids should be allowed in any place ONLY when they are old enough to know how to behave in that space, AND the adults/carers are able enough to control/supervise if they don't.

That is how it works for adults in real life, btw. My colleagues won't cut me a lot of slack if I throw a tantrum in the office because someone else took my mug away. (I tried. They just laughed).

I absolutely loved museums when I was a kid, but probably from age 6 or so on. And back then, they weren't all "how many stone axes can you see?" or "let dilly the dinosaur tell you about evolution". But if I made a noise or concentrated on my toy (what toy? FFS) I would either be told to shut up or removed.

As an adult I DETEST the kidification of museums and galleries. How many kids visit Vs adults? If there's a charge, (direct or indirect) who pays?

However, if you want to go to a playpark, then I'm the one who doesn't know how to behave. I like hygiene, personal space, quiet, and sensible conversation. I'm not sure the local ballpall/softplay centre will let me get that to the detriment of the majority of their visitors.

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Grumpy Ian
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  #42  
Old 10.10.2017, 22:33
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

Thanks grumpy Ian. I was thinking similar things.

I mean I'm happy for all the kides my taxes put through school, "Hort", university and dog knows what during the decades.
But after I've done my duty, not being able to deduct my cat/dog/car, not receiving additional "Kindergeld" to my salary can there be at least one or two places in the country where there are NO kids?
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  #43  
Old 10.10.2017, 23:59
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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Here's a rule that should be applied everywhere.

Kids should be allowed in any place ONLY when they are old enough to know how to behave in that space, AND the adults/carers are able enough to control/supervise if they don't.

That is how it works for adults in real life, btw.
This.
Many posts here mentions places that are interesting or suitable for children. Good. However, a toddler is quite something else. And a toddler over a long period (someone even mentioned a whole hour!) is quite another matter.

I agree with Ian that the general behaviour rules of the place apply. Many toddlers can, indeed, cope with foregoing a toy, not drinking, and behaving with the appropriate quiet and decorum... for a few minutes. Okay, then that's the sensible duration. Those few minutes are precious, each child according to his/her level, hopefully extending the time as they mature.

Take a toddler, and a child, into an art exhibition only after the explanation that this is a place of quiet thought, for looking and no touching, and without all the trappings which will be locked up in the locker, no running.

Spend time inside for only as long as the child's attention span and discipline last. Help the child to extend this, just a little, by moving on to look at a second and perhaps a third exhibit, always reminding him/her to speak only in whispers (and do so yourself). Then leave again, after just a few minutes, especially when everything has gone very well.

Once outside again, relieve that near silence by jumping about a bit and clappling your hands or singing a silly song. Praise the child. Say how enjoyable it for you was to stand in front of that picture and enjoy it, with him/her. Explain that you will come back there often, together. And that each time everyone will be quiet, and that you will show him/her many more wonderful artworks.

The Kunsthaus is, in fact, ideal for this!
It is free on Wednesdays, for everyone.
http://www.kunsthaus.ch/en/informati...2%C2%A9thodolo
That's a really good time to teach a child, and to increase the length of the visits, bit by bit. Good luck!
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  #44  
Old 11.10.2017, 00:07
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

why do people actually take a toddler to an art museum instead of a place that is fun for children?
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  #45  
Old 11.10.2017, 00:15
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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why do people actually take a toddler to an art museum instead of a place that is fun for children?
To teach them that art can be wonderful! To show them the mysteries! To inspire them! To whet their appetite for deeply moving and challenging matters to come! (But as Ian and I wrote above, it should be for only as long as the child can behave appropriately.)

Another reason: because the adult in charge of the child is, herself, yearning for all those things, and desperately gasping, as it were, for that special air, for a little sustenance for the adult soul, far away from playgrounds and plastic, toys and silly jingles.

I can fully sympathise with that adult!

Whenever one can teach a child the fascination and the joy of art, one not only helps the child to grow, but increases one's own hope of being able to spend an enjoyable hour or three together in an art museum, in the future, when that same child has grown up somewhat.
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  #46  
Old 11.10.2017, 00:38
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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as an adult i detest the kidification of museums and galleries. How many kids visit vs adults? If there's a charge, (direct or indirect) who pays?

However, if you want to go to a playpark, then i'm the one who doesn't know how to behave. I like hygiene, personal space, quiet, and sensible conversation. I'm not sure the local ballpall/softplay centre will let me get that to the detriment of the majority of their visitors.
+1
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  #47  
Old 11.10.2017, 01:28
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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To teach them that art can be wonderful! To show them the mysteries! To inspire them! To whet their appetite for deeply moving and challenging matters to come!
At 2 years old though?

I would maybe semi-understand if the kid was at least 6 or 7 or so. But 2? I really doubt any 2-year old will actively remember anything they saw an art gallery (or anywhere else for that matter), let alone be inspired in any way...


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Another reason: because the adult in charge of the child is, herself, yearning for all those things, and desperately gasping, as it were, for that special air, for a little sustenance for the adult soul, far away from playgrounds and plastic, toys and silly jingles.
Well. At the risk of being shooed off the forum: that may well be. But why not do that sans kid? And if that is not possible for whatever reason: should the desire of one person really outweigh that of everyone else? It is a quite safe assumption that other museum goers won't exactly enjoy a kid sitting on the floor playing with some toys (which I understand was the idea), also because chances that this will be done in utter and complete silence and not bother anyone else are rather slim. That is not a criticism, just being realistic. It's really similar to bringing a kid that age to some high-end, fancy restaurant - why bother? Chances are s/he will be bored to tears, not like the food and I'm not sure playing with toys on the restaurant floor or, at worst, nag, blab and scream, is what everyone else, including the parents, would appreciate or enjoy.

There are a million great options for toddlers and kids, some are even museums as have been posted here, where they can enjoy and learn what is interesting to them and age-appropriate. An art gallery is not one of those good options. Granted, no one actually forbade them to enter - they just asked them to stick to the rules. I see nothing wrong with that.

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  #48  
Old 11.10.2017, 04:57
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

@Samaire13
I meant my post 45 in direct relation to my post 43.

I agree fully that children should be taught to behave considerately according to the environment. In my opinion, in an art gallery, this includes being very quiet, not speaking or whispering only, no touching of any of the art works, no running, no bringing toys into the exhibition rooms, no eating or drinking, etc.

Clearly very small children can manage this kind of restriction on their behaviour only for a minute or two, perhaps three, for a child who is typically calm anyway or who is temporarily overwhelmed by the quiet of everyone else in the room, perhaps a few minutes longer. The extent to which the child can behave according to those generally accepted norms of behaviour for an art gallery sets the limit for how long the child and its accompanying adult should spend there.

The thing is: capacities can be extended, partly just through natural aging, but expecially with practice. This is true for all sorts of things small children learn, including how to swim, trying out a musical instrument, learning to ride a bicycle, etc. It can be a wonderful thing to be caught up in the joy of such abilities. Gotta start somewhere, and there's nothing wrong with starting them early, as long as the child is given an age-appropriate explanation, and the adult can guide them into and out of the situation in time.

I know a professional musician who attributes his skills with several instruments directly to the fact that his grandfather used to let him play a few notes on his piano for about 60 seconds a time, from when he could walk. He kept telling him: "Oh, it starts like this, just a minute at a time, and the more you play, the more you'll like it. And the more you like it, the more you'll practice."

I'm grateful to my own grandmother, who arranged with the doorman to let us in on tiptoes to sit at the back of the hall very, very quietly, to hear just the last few minutes of the performances of a small orchestra. She did this repeatedly, through my 3rd and 4th years. Each time, beforehand, she reminded me what was expected of us. She and I had to behave in the same respectful manner. I loved those few minutes, and she told me there'd be more in store for me, the longer I could sit still and listen, and she kept her word. By the time I was five I was able to sit through an entire concert, having learnt to wait for any burst of applause as the right moment to fidget quickly, to blow my nose, etc.. Lucky me to have had that grandmother!
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  #49  
Old 11.10.2017, 08:36
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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To teach them that art can be wonderful! To show them the mysteries! To inspire them! To whet their appetite for deeply moving and challenging matters to come! (But as Ian and I wrote above, it should be for only as long as the child can behave appropriately.)
in that case, it would be better to focus on creating art than staring at objects in museums
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  #50  
Old 11.10.2017, 09:32
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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in that case, it would be better to focus on creating art than staring at objects in museums
Both.
Creating and looking at the creations of others.
Making music and listening to others doing so.
Baking and tasting.
Writing and reading.

All age-appropriate, and respectful to the others around.
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  #51  
Old 11.10.2017, 09:51
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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why do people actually take a toddler to an art museum instead of a place that is fun for children?
It is perfectly possible to do both you know. It's not a case of either/or.
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  #52  
Old 11.10.2017, 11:10
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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At 2 years old though?

.
Yes, 99% of toddlers today can recite poems by Rilke from memory, speak a few foreign languages and play Mozart's piano concerts just before having their morning milk.

According to their parents.



Seriously though - kids are OK(ish), the noisiest and silliest in such circumstances are the parents. I personally don't want to hear the parents, not the kids.
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  #53  
Old 11.10.2017, 11:21
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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Here's a rule that should be applied everywhere.

Kids should be allowed in any place ONLY when they are old enough to know how to behave in that space, AND the adults/carers are able enough to control/supervise if they don't.
Does that include allowing them on planes?

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As an adult I DETEST the kidification of museums and galleries.
Take a trip up to Technorama in Winterthur. It can work.
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  #54  
Old 11.10.2017, 16:07
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

Kids vary. They vary a lot.
Doropfiz made a lot of good points in her posts.
I'd rather there were fewer rules but a lot more common sense and consideration for others.

A friend who is a painter (artistic!) used to take her young son to art galleries at a tender age. She sketched. He sketched. He might have been an adult dressed as a little boy judging by his (unforced) behaviour.

I knew a kid who was taken to a performance of Swan Lake in St. Peterburg at the age of about five. She didn't fidgit, she didn't talk, she sat, entranced, on her mother's knee (so that she could see the stage!). She did exactly the same thing with me at a circus. No laughing. No clapping. Just watching. And she could run off the whole performance afterwards as if she had recorded it. Weird. But useful!

On the other hand, if we wanted our youngsters to sit still to watch something, we had to wear them out first. 10 kms walk to the next town to watch a ballet. 20km on the bike to watch a high level table-tennis match. This was still necessary for one of them at the ripe old age of seven!

Get to know how much your children can take. Do things with them which stay under this limit. If their limit is ten minutes, then ten minutes it is. If they begin to get restless, please take them away. I know you paid for your tickets. And I paid for mine.
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  #55  
Old 11.10.2017, 19:28
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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Kids vary. They vary a lot.
....
Get to know how much your children can take. Do things with them which stay under this limit. If their limit is ten minutes, then ten minutes it is. If they begin to get restless, please take them away. I know you paid for your tickets. And I paid for mine.
Yes! And to do the learning, take your children along to events or venues which are free, anyway, like the Kunsthaus in Zurich, on Wednesdays. That makes it possible to pop in for just those few minutes, and leave when everything is going well. That paves the way for another happy experience there next week, perhaps, after a few months, for a little longer.
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Old 12.10.2017, 01:17
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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Does that include allowing them on planes?
I spend a lot of time on planes. No it doesn't.

Mind you, I have met some adults who shouldn't be allowed on planes either...


Regards


Ian
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  #57  
Old 12.10.2017, 19:59
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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I forgot to mention:

For those with children, do please go to the Augusta Raurica, near Basel. I went there by chance (my hotel was near by and I just said, why not). The roman ruins are actually bigger than I was expecting, and their little museum, which has an impressive silver stash, is built in a wonderful way for little ones.

http://www.augustaraurica.ch/en/

My 1,5 year old absolutely adored their exhibition, and was excitedly pointing and "WOW"-ing their pieces at toddler level. The people working in the museum were absolutely lovely, and I felt I had travelled to a whole new country (I call it the Zürich Syndrome).

Actually, even the Vitra Design Museum, on the other side of the border, is quite wonderful with little ones - design to touch and enjoy by every age group.
Augusta Raurica also has a massive Roman Festival each year, generally (or always?) near the end of August.
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Old 12.10.2017, 20:33
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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9 out of 10 toddlers will stop others from enjoying the art exhibition. Especially their own parents. You only have to stroll around Zürich Zoo and listen to the cacophony of kids screaming, howling, crying, and this in a place which is actually interesting for children.
Not to mention the torture for the animals!

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To teach them that art can be wonderful! To show them the mysteries! To inspire them! To whet their appetite for deeply moving and challenging matters to come!......
To a 2-year old? Seriously? Every bug and puddle is a mystery for such a toddler. And so much more fun.
Anyway, what do these parents do? Lift them up in front of every picture? And isn't the viewing angle of a child smaller than ours? So do you visit the optician before a visit to Kunsthaus to get the info on making sure you put the child at the right angle of the pictures? (If you're gonna do it, you might as well do it right).

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Take a trip up to Technorama in Winterthur. It can work.
Absolutely. Or Balenberg, Suisse Miniature .... but an art gallery?
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Old 12.10.2017, 21:52
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

To be fair, some the art found in art galleries look as if they could have been done by a two year old.
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Old 12.10.2017, 21:56
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Re: Kunsthaus Zürich toddler unfriendly?

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To a 2-year old? Seriously? Every bug and puddle is a mystery for such a toddler. And so much more fun.
Anyway, what do these parents do? Lift them up in front of every picture? And isn't the viewing angle of a child smaller than ours? So do you visit the optician before a visit to Kunsthaus to get the info on making sure you put the child at the right angle of the pictures? (If you're gonna do it, you might as well do it right).


Absolutely. Or Balenberg, Suisse Miniature .... but an art gallery?
Curley, nothing surprises me anymore. Some parents have ambitions. Better not to argue on these topics, trust me.
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