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  #81  
Old 28.11.2017, 22:51
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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People grow up in a housing estate, in the midst of tens of thousands around. It can be quiet, respectful and discrete. Maybe it is hard to imagine for some selfrighteous souls.
Totally inconceivable.

Tom
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  #82  
Old 28.11.2017, 22:54
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

The reality is that by far the most Swiss don't live in the middle of green mountains and blue lakes but in some concrete grey Agglo town.... but I won't go into that argument.

I chose the examples on purpose because the topic were apartment buildings... but the exact same is true for single houses, if not more so: I lived at lake Zurich. Land is expensive there, so developers cramp the houses on the lake coast as tight as technically possible. Not because it's impossible to build well designed and pleasant looking modern buildings. It's not about old vs new. It's about ugly vs nice. Just look at the awesome "very contemporary but with cool Swiss influences" buildings that came up in Andermatt. Nobody complaining there about new buildings. I have also been to some very cool modern places in Zermatt. But the average flat in Switzerland is usually simply poor architecture. And it's not because there arent any great contemporary architects in CH - there are some of the very best. But they are probably fed up with the speed of Swiss building planning and rather make projects abroad.
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  #83  
Old 28.11.2017, 22:57
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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The reality is that by far the most Swiss don't live in the middle of green mountains and blue lakes but in some concrete grey Agglo town....
Fortunately, we live in Ticino.

Tom
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  #84  
Old 28.11.2017, 23:02
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Fortunately, we live in Ticino.

Tom
Yeah, now that you bring this up: Some of the most ugly and worst planned residential areas are along the coasts of the lakes of Ticino. They really spoilt some unique landscapes in the 60s when they built those millions of terraced vacation homes.
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  #85  
Old 29.11.2017, 14:29
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Yeah, now that you bring this up: Some of the most ugly and worst planned residential areas are along the coasts of the lakes of Ticino. They really spoilt some unique landscapes in the 60s when they built those millions of terraced vacation homes.
It's not that it's ugly or badly planned, it's you that don't know how to appreciate Italian architecture and urban planning!

Still, Ticino is not as bad as this:



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Old 29.11.2017, 15:23
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Yeah, now that you bring this up: Some of the most ugly and worst planned residential areas are along the coasts of the lakes of Ticino. They really spoilt some unique landscapes in the 60s when they built those millions of terraced vacation homes.
Millions?

Residential or vacation?

Examples?

Tom
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Old 29.11.2017, 15:55
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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The "Matterhorn" is missing in the lower pic.
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  #88  
Old 29.11.2017, 15:58
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

The blocks with tiny windows can be some of the ugliest. Is it true that there was building regulation for decades after WW2 limiting window size, introduced to mitigate firebombing exposure (having seen what US / British firebombing did to cities and their populations)?

Now that the Swiss have let their guard down, newer blocks at least have more glass and look less prison-like.
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  #89  
Old 29.11.2017, 17:03
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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The blocks with tiny windows can be some of the ugliest. Is it true that there was building regulation for decades after WW2 limiting window size, introduced to mitigate firebombing exposure (having seen what US / British firebombing did to cities and their populations).
I do not think this is true. But if I get it right one would had to look in the SIA norms of that time and to see how they changed.

For ex. Le Lignon (1964 - 1966) has large window fronts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Lignon

More the events of 1973 had an influence which reduced the window sizes after they have expanded.

On the other hand with modern double and triple glazed windows, big window fronts made a return as they are favorable from an energetic point of view.

Some interesting links (some for me for future references):
https://www.derbund.ch/als-bern-den-...story/19880860
https://www.alt-zueri.ch
http://www.heimatschutzstadtzh.ch/fi...ss-Z__rich.pdf
https://www.nzz.ch/zuerichs_stadtarchitekt-1.1362857
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/hbd/de/...erechter2.html
https://www.gsk.ch/sites/default/fil..._Wiskemann.pdf
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  #90  
Old 29.11.2017, 17:22
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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The blocks with tiny windows can be some of the ugliest. Is it true that there was building regulation for decades after WW2 limiting window size, introduced to mitigate firebombing exposure (having seen what US / British firebombing did to cities and their populations)?

Now that the Swiss have let their guard down, newer blocks at least have more glass and look less prison-like.
I don't think so, never heard anything to that end, not even during family discussions (Dad was born 1928 and served in the Swiss army, luckily not until after the war). And the bombing of Schaffhausen was mentioned more than once.

Technology advances. Industry-scale ways to produce reasonably large and thin glass panes weren't invented until the early 20th century. Those small windows may simply have been state-of-the-art at that time.

With that said, I seem to remember that SIA norms regulated for a long time that windows of less than one square meter counted as wall, thus allowed the architect to effectively bill twice (once for the calculated concrete/tile used and once for the actual window). But I'm not sure that's accurate and can't find a reference.

Last edited by Urs Max; 29.11.2017 at 18:11.
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  #91  
Old 29.11.2017, 19:36
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

...think small windows had to do with heating.

Zweckmässikeitism- might be a concept, an imprint, maybe a religion, but cannot be argued with it's acolytes, better to bang your head against something made of concrete.
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  #92  
Old 30.11.2017, 01:32
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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...think small windows had to do with heating.

Zweckmässikeitism- might be a concept, an imprint, maybe a religion, but cannot be argued with it's acolytes, better to bang your head against something made of concrete.
Seems highly unlikely in the '60ies, not before the oil crises. Perhaps not even in the '70ies.
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Old 30.11.2017, 09:34
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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I totally agree with you! it is impossible to get use to Swiss prices! as well as ridiculous fines and strange rules. I guess who ever came up with the phrase 'rules are made to be broken' had lived in Swiss
That would be "Switzerland" and not "Swiss", anyway, for easier integration perhaps consider adhering to the old adage When in Rome...
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  #94  
Old 30.11.2017, 11:19
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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That would be "Switzerland" and not "Swiss", anyway, for easier integration perhaps consider adhering to the old adage When in Rome...
Well, I am not a native English speaker, but the adjective is indeed Swiss, isn't it? So "Swiss prices" is completely correct.
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Old 30.11.2017, 12:26
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Well, I am not a native English speaker, but the adjective is indeed Swiss, isn't it? So "Swiss prices" is completely correct.
Right, but please read the second sentence too.
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Old 30.11.2017, 23:50
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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the "matterhorn" is missing in the lower pic.
ftfy

swiss-housing-paradox-pic.jpg

I must concede, it doesn't look bad....similar colors...the towers overlookign the bay and the mountain...

if only I were a bit more skilled with photoshop!!



But I still prefer the classic Swiss houses at the countryside here...I guess theres no accounting for taste

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Old 05.12.2017, 17:02
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Yeah, now that you bring this up: Some of the most ugly and worst planned residential areas are along the coasts of the lakes of Ticino. They really spoilt some unique landscapes in the 60s when they built those millions of terraced vacation homes.
you got downvoted but it's true, Ticino is no stranger to the ugly concrete block phenomenon.

It's cheap and it optimizes space keeping in mind the regulatory limits.

And in the 60s-70s some people made lots of money.
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Old 06.12.2017, 09:07
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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With that said, I seem to remember that SIA norms regulated for a long time that windows of less than one square meter counted as wall, thus allowed the architect to effectively bill twice (once for the calculated concrete/tile used and once for the actual window). But I'm not sure that's accurate and can't find a reference.
According to the answer by SIA I got on enquiring about this, such norms are still in effect.

These calculations are ruled by the SIA norms 118/262 and 118/266-1:
a) For conrete walls, ceilings, etc., openings of less than 2 square meters are ignored when calculating the concrete used (SIA norm 118/262:2004, cipher 8.5.2.2)
b) For walls made of man-made stones, openings of less than 1 square meter are ignored when calculating the amount of stone used used (SIA norm 118/266-1:2017, cipher 5.1.2)

So in effect and if the condition is met, the calculation "acts" as if there was no hole in the wall/ceiling. Considering contemporay use of large glass areas this has probably only limited effect these days, but one or two generations ago things may well have been different. This incentivises the architect to suggest small windows, e.g. for bathroom and stairwells, perhaps the kitchen as well.
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Old 06.12.2017, 10:32
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

Hiya
I can appreciate your frustration. Here in Zug there are a few more different looking options but rental prices for even the middle to upper part of the rental market are 3,500-5,500+.
More options to be able to have views of the lake and mountains which can be a nice option too.
good luck, cheers Ann-Marie
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Old 07.12.2017, 17:02
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

Yes because Zug attracts the dirty rich because of their tax breaks. Its a tax haven
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Hiya
I can appreciate your frustration. Here in Zug there are a few more different looking options but rental prices for even the middle to upper part of the rental market are 3,500-5,500+.
More options to be able to have views of the lake and mountains which can be a nice option too.
good luck, cheers Ann-Marie
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