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  #101  
Old 06.12.2017, 10:32
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

Hiya
I can appreciate your frustration. Here in Zug there are a few more different looking options but rental prices for even the middle to upper part of the rental market are 3,500-5,500+.
More options to be able to have views of the lake and mountains which can be a nice option too.
good luck, cheers Ann-Marie
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  #102  
Old 07.12.2017, 17:02
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

Yes because Zug attracts the dirty rich because of their tax breaks. Its a tax haven
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Hiya
I can appreciate your frustration. Here in Zug there are a few more different looking options but rental prices for even the middle to upper part of the rental market are 3,500-5,500+.
More options to be able to have views of the lake and mountains which can be a nice option too.
good luck, cheers Ann-Marie
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  #103  
Old 07.12.2017, 18:49
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

The OP's observations are right on the money.

Here's the explanation for the horrid urban planning of Switzerland.
It all comes down -again like everything in CH- to money and special interests devoided of long term view and real environmental considerations.

First of all, one important thing to understand about Switzerland is what has been proudly called (by the Swiss and also outside observers) the Swiss "pragmatism". Behind this word is actually the much more mundane rule of money over everything. Money trumps everything in CH including tradition and the need to protect landscapes, the environment and the health of inhabitants. Of course, no acknowledgment of the sort will ever be made openly, hypocrisy rules (a constant in Switzerland). Another important notion is that of consensus, which translates in opposing political forces finding common grounds and working hand in hands. Like in most European countries, the political agenda has been greatly influenced by the Left whose major preoccupation has been affordable housing. But Swiss capitalists were also keen to push for these projects. Notwithstanding the construction sector, the retirement system which is a mandated golden egg for the Swiss financial sector is greatly dependent on property investment.

So a lot, a lot of "affordable housing" has been created over the years, often in a hurry without reflexion on long term planning and environment conservation, very often in a dubious/horrid manner. And it continues unabated, only now cities spend fortunes in urban planning with numerous experts on their payrolls, but they still keep churning horrible projects after horrible projects. And btw the building code is a TOTAL JOKE. Like other regulations in Switzerland it's there to make money for the state, and it's the livelihood of dozens of bureaucrats employed by each city, BUT it's not there to ensure the protection of landscapes, you can be sure of that ! Authorities even regularly get around their own regulations. Getting around the law is very common for authorities in Switzerland (but you the average citizen don't even think about it !) Architectural harmony is never really a factor. The Swiss ' history of a people of peasants left them with the constant need to stroke their ego with newer city developments, the little villages that many cities to this day remain then feel more important.

You can pretty much see each successive period of building/erring frenzy as you drive through cities; the 50's, the 70's , the 80's and then the current construction frenzy. A very ugly mix of architecture styles indeed. Ask a Swiss about it and they 'll say , what can we do ? That's modern life, we can't live in the past. Today's blockhaus type architecture ? That's the wave of the future ! It's not a cause of concern to them, it's always been like that. They tear down old stuff to make ways for new stuff. That makes money and they feel better about themselves (status, i.e. of a developed nation with state of the art facilities, being a very very important thing for the Swiss) .
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  #104  
Old 08.12.2017, 08:51
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

Ohmy. Lots of countries can be accused of the same behaviour...it would be nice to protect the landscape and old architecture but the truth is that people need modern housing and comfort. I don't think that a farmhouse built around 1800, to cater the needs of 3 generations living under the same roof makes for comfortable living. There are so many rules imposed exactly for protecting old styles that makes any improvement pretty impossible so I can understand why few would actively look for such homes. I would like to live in a Wöschhüsli if I could totally renovate it, but I know someone who bought some traditional house and they have their hands tied up so to speak. Speaking of lack of regulations btw..

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  #105  
Old 19.12.2017, 11:20
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

I finally spent some time in Bern looking for apartments and I think I have one.
It looks like I'll be living in Wabern, which seems quite nice. I'm looking forward to it.

What do you think of Wabern? Good neighbourhood?

I also had a good look around the city. The old town and views are absolutely gorgeous of course, but, my god, having lived in many cities in many countries, I feel I can safely say that Bern stadtrand/outskirts are some of the grimmest I have ever seen (and I've lived in Moscow and Manchester!).

Some of the architecture/townplanning is derisory. Balconies of apartments built to face factories and other high-rises instead of the Alps and more open views on the other side of the building. And then painted the colour of a bladder infection.

I'm sorry, but it IS worse than many other cities/countries. Countries such as the UK had the issue of brutalist architecture and town planning coming about due to slum clearances (and post-war poverty). These high-rise 'walkway in the sky' neighbourhoods quickly devolved into crime-ridden ghettos and many of the housing projects were ultimately torn down only 2 or 3 decades after they were constructed. Since then, town planners and architects have been pressured to build mass housing that is more humane, more community based, more sensitive to the environment. This doesn't seem to be the case in Bern: There's scant attention to aesthetics. 'Pack 'em in, as many as you can; ignore the landscape. Money, money, money.'

There's a line in the thriller Mortelle Randonnee in which a blind character's profession is mentioned as "Swiss architect".

That makes perfect sense.

Last edited by DavidRaphael; 19.12.2017 at 11:44.
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  #106  
Old 19.12.2017, 12:04
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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What do you think of Wabern? Good neighbourhood?
Maybe it is, maybe it is not. Please define what is and makes a "good neighborhood" from your own point of view.
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  #107  
Old 19.12.2017, 12:25
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Maybe it is, maybe it is not. Please define what is and makes a "good neighborhood" from your own point of view.
A neighbourhood that is largely recommendable, free of attributes that many people would agree are negative or undesirable.
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  #108  
Old 19.12.2017, 12:29
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Maybe it is, maybe it is not. Please define what is and makes a "good neighborhood" from your own point of view.
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A neighbourhood that is largely recommendable, free of attributes that many people would agree are negative or undesirable.
Have you ever thought of a career in politics? With answers like that, containing no pertinent information whatsoever, you could go far.
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  #109  
Old 19.12.2017, 12:35
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Have you ever thought of a career in politics? With answers like that, containing no pertinent information whatsoever, you could go far.
Not politics, but I have genuinely made a successful career out of being sarcastic and facetious.
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  #110  
Old 19.12.2017, 12:41
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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A neighbourhood that is largely recommendable, free of attributes that many people would agree are negative or undesirable.
Considering there are people living in Wabern it seems to be a good one.
Considering there are empty apartments may be not.
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  #111  
Old 19.12.2017, 15:46
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

I just hope the boredom does not drive you to the bottle! I am really beginning to think that Zürich is become one of the most boring cities in the world!
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I finally spent some time in Bern looking for apartments and I think I have one.
It looks like I'll be living in Wabern, which seems quite nice. I'm looking forward to it.

What do you think of Wabern? Good neighbourhood?

I also had a good look around the city. The old town and views are absolutely gorgeous of course, but, my god, having lived in many cities in many countries, I feel I can safely say that Bern stadtrand/outskirts are some of the grimmest I have ever seen (and I've lived in Moscow and Manchester!).

Some of the architecture/townplanning is derisory. Balconies of apartments built to face factories and other high-rises instead of the Alps and more open views on the other side of the building. And then painted the colour of a bladder infection.

I'm sorry, but it IS worse than many other cities/countries. Countries such as the UK had the issue of brutalist architecture and town planning coming about due to slum clearances (and post-war poverty). These high-rise 'walkway in the sky' neighbourhoods quickly devolved into crime-ridden ghettos and many of the housing projects were ultimately torn down only 2 or 3 decades after they were constructed. Since then, town planners and architects have been pressured to build mass housing that is more humane, more community based, more sensitive to the environment. This doesn't seem to be the case in Bern: There's scant attention to aesthetics. 'Pack 'em in, as many as you can; ignore the landscape. Money, money, money.'

There's a line in the thriller Mortelle Randonnee in which a blind character's profession is mentioned as "Swiss architect".

That makes perfect sense.
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  #112  
Old 19.12.2017, 18:53
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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The OP's observations are right on the money.

Here's the explanation for the horrid urban planning of Switzerland.
It all comes down -again like everything in CH- to money and special interests devoided of long term view and real environmental considerations.
Could you please give an example of a country where urban planning is better than in CH?
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  #113  
Old 19.12.2017, 23:22
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Could you please give an example of a country where urban planning is better than in CH?
Vatican City.
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  #114  
Old 20.12.2017, 17:15
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

I lived in Belp, so Wabern was often on my way into Bern, certainly via the train, and often via the car. Like everything else, there were nice spots and no so nice. If you‘re lucky, you‘ll have a good view. Decent access to Bern itself. Hope it satisfies.
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  #115  
Old 20.12.2017, 19:01
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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They did not just "accept" gold, they were in fact receiving that gold as payment for services rendered, i.e. the production on war material.
Lol Switzerland's financial institutions readily accepted stolen gold and exchanged it against currencies that the Reich badly needed to buy raw materials. They laundered that gold. You just need to read " Switzerland, the Gold and the Dead" (one of the best book on Switzerland btw).
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  #116  
Old 20.12.2017, 19:02
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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A neighbourhood that is largely recommendable, free of attributes that many people would agree are negative or undesirable.
But who are those "many people"? We live in a rural area outside of Bern and we love it. Some people would be annoyed by the church and cow bells but we don't mind. There's a school near us and the children scream their little heads off before school and at recess. Some folks might find that a negative whereas we think children laughing and playing and being kids is fine. We love our mostly quiet little neighborhood, but we know some people would be bored to tears and couldn't imagine living here.

What attributes do you find negative or undesirable? Or to put it another way, what attributes are preferred?
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  #117  
Old 20.12.2017, 19:07
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Could you please give an example of a country where urban planning is better than in CH?
Several examples can come to mind but it's always difficult to make comparisons. In the US, you just don't have those issues in most states and cities, then again land is much more available of course. You could find examples in Europe as well. Basically, the more government intervention in building affordable housing, the bigger the potential for mistakes and destruction of landscapes. That's not to say intervention is bad, it makes sense for example to regulate rents.
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  #118  
Old 20.12.2017, 19:10
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

These church bells ringing every 15 min. Who needs that.
Its supposed to remind one of where one is.The " homely " Swiss feeling.Well I dont need that stupidity every 15 min. Imagine if the muslims had their loudspeaker going at prayer every 15 min and blasted it out to the Swiss
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But who are those "many people"? We live in a rural area outside of Bern and we love it. Some people would be annoyed by the church and cow bells but we don't mind. There's a school near us and the children scream their little heads off before school and at recess. Some folks might find that a negative whereas we think children laughing and playing and being kids is fine. We love our mostly quiet little neighborhood, but we know some people would be bored to tears and couldn't imagine living here.

What attributes do you find negative or undesirable? Or to put it another way, what attributes are preferred?
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  #119  
Old 20.12.2017, 19:15
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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These church bells ringing every 15 min. Who needs that.
Its supposed to remind one of where one is.The " homely " Swiss feeling.Well I dont need that stupidity every 15 min. Imagine if the muslims had their loudspeaker going at prayer every 15 min and blasted it out to the Swiss
As I said, we don't mind but some others (you) probably would.

As for minarets, there are Muslims in Switzerland. Some of them might actually be... Swiss citizens! If the people of a community want a minaret or a church or anything else, they're welcome to vote on it. You're welcome to choose not to live in a place you won't like.
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  #120  
Old 20.12.2017, 19:38
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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These church bells ringing every 15 min. Who needs that.
Its supposed to remind one of where one is.The " homely " Swiss feeling.Well I dont need that stupidity every 15 min. Imagine if the muslims had their loudspeaker going at prayer every 15 min and blasted it out to the Swiss
I need it and I like it. But what has time to do with religion

The partly religious motivated bell ringings are at 6am or 7am, 11am, and 4pm o clock. But even those are used to tell what time it is.

I lived very, very close to a clock tower. The only one which really is and was over the top is the 15 minutes at 7pm Saturday.
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/content...dnung%20V1.pdf

But I miss that they no longer tell me the time during the night. Was really soothing to know the time without turning the head or even opening the eyes.
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