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  #121  
Old 21.12.2017, 09:11
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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One thing is the state coming and robbing your money, another is the free market setting up a price.
Actually it is a free market, a market with countries on one and people on the other side. You're free to move elsewhere, anytime.
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  #122  
Old 21.12.2017, 10:44
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Always makes me smile- this obsession with low and high tax areas. What is the point of living in a low tax area if you have to pay that sort of price for renting or buying? For 1500 here you can get a 6 bedroomed completely renovated property with land.
But someone working in Zug cannot reasonably commute to your village in the ROmandie, Odile.

For a meaningful comparison you would have to look at areas that actually are commutable to the job. For a job in ZG, that would be ZG itself and parts of SZ, ZH, LU, AG.

I did a quick sanity check using the Comparis calculator, quick and dirty, likely savings are greater, but good enough to paint a broad picture.

Someone earning 500K could save 30-70+K in taxes per year, so using tax rates as part of the decision where to live is absolutely reasonable, even at higher rents the family could be well ahead.

Someone earning 100K could save 1K to 7K, not enough to weigh taxes heavily in the equation, and likely not enough to offset higher rents.

Add in the type of housing available. Your 6 bedroom freestanding house with lots of land is a very rare beast in this part of the world. Due to scarcity, that house will be similarly priced, as in very expensive, even in many high tax commutable-to-Zug gemeinden.

Sure, many of us would love to live in a large historic single family home with lots of land in an idyllic village auf dem Land. But the realty of the job market does not allow that for most of us.
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  #123  
Old 21.12.2017, 11:15
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

Objective, lol? It would help perhaps if you knew more about the reality.

Not talking about my village in particular- but other areas where commuting is NOT a huge thing. From me to Neuchâtel, no heavy traffic and about 45-50 mins to Neuchâtel- from the end of the valley, where prices are just as cheap- about 20 minutes, and with fast trains to Neuchâtel every half-hour. Of course, absolutely no good for Zug for sure. I am talking here to people who believe, as they live near Lake Geneva- that they could never afford to buy a house, never mind one with space- or rent something with extra space and a garden, etc. My only reason for posting is to say 'don't despair- and be prepared to look just a bit further- the commute may be quite reasonable and easy, and it is really worthwhile exploring a bit' ... I have no horses in this race (not even in real life, 'our' 2 horses belong to people near Lausanne who can't afford to have them looked after there- and my neighbour uses our fields as part of her horse care package) - just think it is good to realise there are options and choices a bit beyond.

Look at what has happened in the Fribourg area- people have realised that with a short commute of less than 1 hour (same as above) they could get 3 times more for their money, and lots more space, than in Lausanne area. Prices have in fact trebled in last 10 years. In Val-de-Ruz above Neuchâtel, same thing has happened - but prices have not x3, but gone up significantly.

No-one, and certainly not me, is talking about a massive commute. Having (adult) kids in Surrey doing the nightmare commute from Surrey to the City - wouldn't wish that on anyone.

So, I am in fact very objective Even to Lausanne, anyone able to set their own working hours, starting at 9 and finishing at 6, would have a less than 1 hour commute (8 to 5, due to frontaliers would be a nightmare). As said, a choice.

PS, come along and visit one day- plenty of space and you would be most welcome

Last edited by Odile; 21.12.2017 at 14:42.
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  #124  
Old 21.12.2017, 17:17
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

I’m not sure about the Swiss etiquette on negotiating but would it be rude to offer 10-15% less on a house purchase, especially if I’m a cash buyer?
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  #125  
Old 21.12.2017, 17:31
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Objective, lol? It would help perhaps if you knew more about the reality.


Look at what has happened in the Fribourg area- people have realised that with a short commute of less than 1 hour (same as above) they could get 3 times more for their money, and lots more space, than in Lausanne area. Prices have in fact trebled in last 10 years. In Val-de-Ruz above Neuchâtel, same thing has happened - but prices have not x3, but gone up significantly.

No-one, and certainly not me, is talking about a massive commute. Having (adult) kids in Surrey doing the nightmare commute from Surrey to the City - wouldn't wish that on anyone.

So, I am in fact very objective Even to Lausanne, anyone able to set their own working hours, starting at 9 and finishing at 6, would have a less than 1 hour commute (8 to 5, due to frontaliers would be a nightmare). As said, a choice.

PS, come along and visit one day- plenty of space and you would be most welcome
I'd have to somehow agree with you, knowing well the area.

A few remarks:
-Your pretty place in the Jura is not for everyone, I'd say more for people working in central Lausanne, Yverdon, Neuchatel. It gets far for others, and the commute most likely has to be done using the train otherwise, as you indicated, it can become a pain.

-It's a bit different in Fribourg areas, it always have been pricier than your side of Jura, but indeed cheaper than Lausanne area, (I'd say twice cheaper). But yes, it comes at the cost of a heavy commuting.

-Now, due to latest trends, there plenty of available appartment since, say a year or two ago, and it has driven rents down. Of course, only if you rent now, I'm paying the older prices, but will move to get cheaper.

I also agree with others, Zug has its own reality, but when I checked rent, it's only central zug which is expensive, say 20min from there appears cheaper. But yes, no train then...
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  #126  
Old 21.12.2017, 20:01
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

Don't live in the Jura btw, but the Neuchâtel Jura mountains, not quite the same. But interesting points.No need to commute to Neuchâtel by train- as the traffic is never a problem (but it is peak time to Lausanne). Paris by train is just over 3 hrs too . And there are many industries here, big and small- includng some of the best watch-makers, pharma, engineering- no commute required- and fabulous sport facilities and cultural activities, etc.

Just encouraging people to thnk a little outside the box. Those who bought in Fribourg area, and those who bought in Val-de-Ruz - are laughing. Prices where I live have not gone up very much since we bought in 2007, still fabulously cheap for a lot- and that thing I can't put a price on - SPACE - in so many more ways than one. Irrelevant for me, as I ain't selling for sure.

Last edited by Odile; 21.12.2017 at 23:28.
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  #127  
Old 22.12.2017, 00:13
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Actually it is a free market, a market with countries on one and people on the other side. You're free to move to canton Zug , anytime.
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  #128  
Old 26.01.2018, 20:40
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The landscape is beautiful because townies are contained in high-density hutches.

HTH
And also polluted by 1000 different chemicals in their flats/homes and 10 000 OUT. Ol'disel killing 500 000 people in Europe alone?
Na...
Can't be right mate.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=N....0.k85ier2dT_g

Monsanto's weed killer which killed bees and 87% of all insects?
Na...
Mate...
Left wing propaganda:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=X....0.tP-mwwsXAuo

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And finally - it all catches up.

2015 was the year when human life expectation leveled it's maximum.

Polluted air and water. Monsanto/corporate carcinogenic food production.
Finally it catches up.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=4....0.SLTyvJl0y_o

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And finally - it all catches up.

2015 was the year when human life expectation leveled it's maximum.

Polluted air and water. Monsanto/corporate carcinogenic food production.
Finally it catches up.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=4....0.SLTyvJl0y_o
And humane longevity is in decline...

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.01.2018 at 22:09. Reason: Merging consecutive replies. Please use the multi-quote feature (button to the right of quote)
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  #129  
Old 26.01.2018, 21:00
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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And finally - it all catches up.

2015 was the year when human life expectation leveled it's maximum.

Polluted air and water. Monsanto/corporate carcinogenic food production.
Finally it catches up.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=4....0.SLTyvJl0y_o
Only in the U.S.

It's not Monsanto at all but gluttony which is the main cause.
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  #130  
Old 27.01.2018, 01:58
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Only in the U.S.

It's not Monsanto at all but gluttony which is the main cause.
And in UK

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7939881.html

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Only in the U.S.

It's not Monsanto at all but gluttony which is the main cause.
Gluttony & Obesity is not a new thing in America - you could say it is a recognizable 'quality' of American Dream (read: Nightmare) for at least 7 decades. Try harder.

In meantime scientists are scratching their heads why wine, apples and other plants are in decline.

Hint: ask major pollinators who come back from fields (or not) sticky with Monsanto & bro ... sorry co - chemicals:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...insect-numbers

A giant insect ecosystem is collapsing due to humans. It's a catastrophe:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ty-catastrophe



'Warning of 'ecological Armageddon' after dramatic plunge in insect numbers'

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.01.2018 at 22:10. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #131  
Old 27.01.2018, 10:56
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Gluttony & Obesity is not a new thing in America - you could say it is a recognizable 'quality' of American Dream (read: Nightmare) for at least 7 decades. Try harder.

Actually, seven decades sounds about right for noticing and being able to measure a decrease in longevity caused by obesity and lack of exercise - especially as so many other factors would affect the results such as a decrease in tobacco consumption (with changes also taking decades to notice).

For sure, decline in insect population probably does and will affect future crop production but that's got nothing to do with today's longevity figures.
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  #132  
Old 27.01.2018, 16:01
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

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Actually, seven decades sounds about right for noticing and being able to measure a decrease in longevity caused by obesity and lack of exercise - especially as so many other factors would affect the results such as a decrease in tobacco consumption (with changes also taking decades to notice).

For sure, decline in insect population probably does and will affect future crop production but that's got nothing to do with today's longevity figures.
The measures and statistics are not taken once a decade - but once a year. That means you'll see the difference immediately. Whether it represents a health status of the society from a decade or two (definitely not 7) is a nice base for a debate, but it doesn't change the fact that you see the difference within the one year period.

As for insects - you are correct. Directly it doesn't have an impact on the stats. Indirectly it tells you very interesting story. When talking about health you need to combine several factors and one of them is how much chemical shit like Monsanto's weed-insects-bees-killer land on your plate.

I know the difference - when I switched to organic my health improved in similar way, when I stopped smoking.
It's an empiric experience and for me obviously the only benchmark.

But of course people can get used to anything.

You know, not so long ago tabacco industry CEO's under the oath said 'tobacco is not addictive'

WASHINGTON, April 14, 1994. The top executives of the seven largest American tobacco companies testified in Congress today that they did not believe that cigarettes were addictive, but that they would rather their own children did not smoke.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/15/us...pagewanted=all

And see it for yourself on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6B1q22R438
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  #133  
Old 27.01.2018, 16:06
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

This thread has gone very weird.
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  #134  
Old 30.01.2021, 11:40
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Re: The Swiss Housing Paradox?

It did. Didn't it?
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