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Old 18.09.2019, 19:18
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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Good morning,

We have a much liked previously neighbour who has gradually become more and more religious over the years, now you canít even have a simple conversation with her without God and Jesus being mentioned in each and every sentence followed by a telling off for something or other. She has a daughter who is the same age as my eldest 10-11 , who is rapidly following her mothers path. They donít swim because itís exposing their bodies etc etc. I am a Christian, my husband is Muslim and our girls are being raised as Muslim with the main focus on God/ Allah and the principles of being kind to others etc etc. This neighbour has in the past tried to get our daughters involved in praying with them in a circle holding hands and when they declined she prayed for them loudly so they would hear that they were wrong , at this point we stopped our girls going there and eventually thought we had an understanding so we relaxed and everythingís as ok again. This woman is my friend .

But at my daughters birthday party last week she gifted her a Bible! With a blue tab for her to read , and embarrassed and upset her . I returned it very kindly to her daughter and explained that she doesnít need it because she has her own book the Quran and the child became a bit distressed and said it to teach her about Jesus to which I said gently that she follows Muhammad not Jesus.

My husband is really upset obviously , we live in the same building and see each other regularly - Iím going to be busy a lot now and so will my children.

Is she legally allowed to do this? Surely if she has been told itís not welcome itís not? My husband was ready to call the police but I stopped him.

Does anyone actually know ?

Many thanks
And which religion is your neighbour adhering to?
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Old 18.09.2019, 19:23
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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Good morning,

We have a much liked previously neighbour who has gradually become more and more religious over the years, now you canít even have a simple conversation with her without God and Jesus being mentioned in each and every sentence followed by a telling off for something or other. She has a daughter who is the same age as my eldest 10-11 , who is rapidly following her mothers path. They donít swim because itís exposing their bodies etc etc. I am a Christian, my husband is Muslim and our girls are being raised as Muslim with the main focus on God/ Allah and the principles of being kind to others etc etc. This neighbour has in the past tried to get our daughters involved in praying with them in a circle holding hands and when they declined she prayed for them loudly so they would hear that they were wrong , at this point we stopped our girls going there and eventually thought we had an understanding so we relaxed and everythingís as ok again. This woman is my friend .

But at my daughters birthday party last week she gifted her a Bible! With a blue tab for her to read , and embarrassed and upset her . I returned it very kindly to her daughter and explained that she doesnít need it because she has her own book the Quran and the child became a bit distressed and said it to teach her about Jesus to which I said gently that she follows Muhammad not Jesus.

My husband is really upset obviously , we live in the same building and see each other regularly - Iím going to be busy a lot now and so will my children.

Is she legally allowed to do this? Surely if she has been told itís not welcome itís not? My husband was ready to call the police but I stopped him.

Does anyone actually know ?

Many thanks
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And which religion is your neighbour adhering to?
I'd hazard a guess and say Christian, but I might be wrong.
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  #123  
Old 18.09.2019, 21:53
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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Of course, scientists have also had a rough time because of religion. Say Galileo had to recant his statement about the earth's orbit around the sun.

But then again scientists can have a rough time today, especially if they make non-politically correct discoveries. Say implying that intelligence, like say skin colour, has a genetic component (James Watson).
Well, he didn't "discover" anything new, "scientific" racism has a long(er) history.

I guess I'm not really surprised that there are people here who still believe in that? Have read a few similar opinions on EF before..

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Charles Darwin has lost his faith by the age of 40 and ended his life thinking Christianity was essentially a load of rubbish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi..._loss_of_faith



It's not a chain of 'accidents' in the slightest. It's a chain of specific circumstance, survival and evolution. There was nothing intentional or unintentional about it. It just was.



Umm, he made no "discoveries" regarding race and intelligence. It was all unsubstantiated and based on his own prejudices https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-race-comments

"Dr Watson’s statements are reprehensible, unsupported by science, and in no way represent the views of CSHL, its trustees, faculty, staff, or students. The laboratory condemns the misuse of science to justify prejudice.”

Basically all of your entire above post was a load of nonsense.
You were quicker.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.09.2019 at 22:08.
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  #124  
Old 18.09.2019, 22:17
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

Parents are like robbers, speeders and marriage swindlers: you should avoid them. This leads directly to the realization: The problem with children is the parents
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  #125  
Old 18.09.2019, 22:38
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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Good morning,

We have a much liked previously neighbour who has gradually become more and more religious over the years, now you canít even have a simple conversation with her without God and Jesus being mentioned in each and every sentence followed by a telling off for something or other. She has a daughter who is the same age as my eldest 10-11 , who is rapidly following her mothers path. They donít swim because itís exposing their bodies etc etc. I am a Christian, my husband is Muslim and our girls are being raised as Muslim with the main focus on God/ Allah and the principles of being kind to others etc etc. This neighbour has in the past tried to get our daughters involved in praying with them in a circle holding hands and when they declined she prayed for them loudly so they would hear that they were wrong , at this point we stopped our girls going there and eventually thought we had an understanding so we relaxed and everythingís as ok again. This woman is my friend .

But at my daughters birthday party last week she gifted her a Bible! With a blue tab for her to read , and embarrassed and upset her . I returned it very kindly to her daughter and explained that she doesnít need it because she has her own book the Quran and the child became a bit distressed and said it to teach her about Jesus to which I said gently that she follows Muhammad not Jesus.

My husband is really upset obviously , we live in the same building and see each other regularly - Iím going to be busy a lot now and so will my children.

Is she legally allowed to do this? Surely if she has been told itís not welcome itís not? My husband was ready to call the police but I stopped him.

Does anyone actually know ?

Many thanks
A few thoughts:

-Why was your child embarrassed at receiving a bible? This seems like an odd reaction. Perhaps she didn't like the gift, but 'embarrassed'?

-You've tried explaining your POV to this person multiple times. You've been unsuccessful. Now you must decide if you want you and your children to continue spending time with her and her family (accepting the reality of the situation).

-Did this woman recently find out you are a born Christian? Perhaps she views you as an apostate. In that case you are very unlikely to break through.

-I haven't got a clue what would be illegal about this situation & what you would tell the police when you phoned them. If someone continues to say something you've told them is not welcome, then leave. But you can't force them to stop speaking.
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  #126  
Old 18.09.2019, 23:11
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

This reminds me of my former mother-in-law a devout Lutheran, turned Jehovah Witness, turned Adventist. She used to call me to say she was praying for my lost Catholic soul as I was surely going to burn in hell for being a Papist 😊

My reaction was to simply say: sorry, I have faith and believe in God, but I do not believe in religions, theyíre created by men (not exactly true.. I enjoy going to both Catholic and Protestant services).

It would drive her batty. She felt she was on a mission to save me..... for more than 20 years.

I learned that it is impossible to change a zealotís opinion, even when begging for just neutrality, or no opinion.
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  #127  
Old 18.09.2019, 23:56
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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Not sure if someone else has taken it up, but you're forbidding her to swim?

Besides this being pretty much illegal (School swimming is mandatory), this will take her of from many social activities.

Religion is something private (besides I know many muslim women/girls who have no problem with regular, modest swimwear), and even if she can't choose her own religion till she is 16, banning something that's very much a tradition in the country she is growing up is making her socially akward. If you want her to integrate, let her do what she likes, not what you force on her.
We go swimming regularly, all of us in bikinis as well! ( except my husband of course 🤣🤣&#129315 Read my Post properly , we are a very chilled out family itís my neighbour whoís not!
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  #128  
Old 19.09.2019, 00:07
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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A few thoughts:

-Why was your child embarrassed at receiving a bible? This seems like an odd reaction. Perhaps she didn't like the gift, but 'embarrassed'?

-You've tried explaining your POV to this person multiple times. You've been unsuccessful. Now you must decide if you want you and your children to continue spending time with her and her family (accepting the reality of the situation).

-Did this woman recently find out you are a born Christian? Perhaps she views you as an apostate. In that case you are very unlikely to break through.

-I haven't got a clue what would be illegal about this situation & what you would tell the police when you phoned them. If someone continues to say something you've told them is not welcome, then leave. But you can't force them to stop speaking.

I am still a Christian, she embarrassed my daughter because the gift was opened in front of all of her friends who are 90% Muslim, who in turn all gasped and stared at my daughter wide eyed as children would. Lots of whispering and nudging ..... my daughter didnít know where to look or how to react .

My neighbour is very concerned for me because Iíve married a Muslim and he wonít convert to Christianity. To be fair we as a couple have been dealing with it for years and years and we just shrug it off but when your children are targeted it feels very different. Itís been a learning curve for us , we donít want to segregate anyone so we encourage friends from all races and religions and forbid racism etc in our home. We have a good balance and we are proud of ourselves and of our girls.
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  #129  
Old 19.09.2019, 00:21
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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What you appear to be basically saying is that if science, as it stands now, cannot explain it, it must be magic.

So if, in the future, science manages to explain everything, then there's no need for the magic. Is that correct?
I did not use the term magic, but there are things which science, as it is currently defined, can not adequately explain. Darwin did not get very far with the emergence of the first living organism from non-life and that situation has not changed in the intervening 150 or so years. Science has its boundaries. May be in the future, science will be able to acknowledge an intelligent actor which it currently can not.


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Do you need faith if you have evidence, though?

Scientists usually deal in evidence, stay away from absolutes and are open to amending and updating, which is what sets it apart from religion.

Unless do you mean that people have to have faith that scientists aren't making it all up?
Scientists may well have all those good qualities in their limited areas of speciality. However, to accept that there would be a purely scientific explanation that covers all the areas I previously mentioned from starting from nothing to world we currently inhabit, and further that is simply all the product of a chain of accidents, is in itself an act of faith. For example, if you were presented with what purported to be a theory of how matter and energy came from nothing, would you be able to evaluate or would you simply take it on faith that the theory was plausible ?


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Charles Darwin has lost his faith by the age of 40 and ended his life thinking Christianity was essentially a load of rubbish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi..._loss_of_faith
He did fluctuate in his beliefs so he was not the best example. But on the issue of life emerging from non-life in his Origin of Species he uses the biblical metaphor from Genesis of life being breathed into some primordial form. The "load of rubbish" is your own short summary of complex article.


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It's not a chain of 'accidents' in the slightest. It's a chain of specific circumstance, survival and evolution. There was nothing intentional or unintentional about it. It just was.
Try to apply "it just was" to step before that. The transformation from non-life to life. Accident or design or "just was" ?

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Umm, he made no "discoveries" regarding race and intelligence. It was all unsubstantiated and based on his own prejudices https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-race-comments
"Dr Watsonís statements are reprehensible, unsupported by science, and in no way represent the views of CSHL, its trustees, faculty, staff, or students. The laboratory condemns the misuse of science to justify prejudice.Ē
I don't share your faith in the Guardian's analysis. The probem is anyway that "intelligence" has been conflated with the "quality" implying that a person who has a lesser intelligence is a lesser being, which of course is not the case (unless you are a eugenicist, that is). It stands to reason that all human traits have some genetic component and "intelligence" is anyway defined by how you measure it. However, the point I was illustrating was that a scientist is not necessarily free to express his observations if these do not conform with the received view.

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Basically all of your entire above post was a load of nonsense.
I'm sorry that you felt the need to express yourself like that.
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  #130  
Old 19.09.2019, 01:32
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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Scientists may well have all those good qualities in their limited areas of speciality. However, to accept that there would be a purely scientific explanation that covers all the areas I previously mentioned from starting from nothing to world we currently inhabit, and further that is simply all the product of a chain of accidents, is in itself an act of faith. For example, if you were presented with what purported to be a theory of how matter and energy came from nothing, would you be able to evaluate or would you simply take it on faith that the theory was plausible ?
You seem to misunderstand the nature of science. Science isn't about truth, per say. Science is about making testable predictions about the world. And that word testable is very important exactly because people are so good at finding patterns that they even see them when they aren't really justified - when they aren't actually useful for making predictions.

And while so much of mythology and mysticism can be tracked back to this tendency to see patterns that don't exist, there is nothing wrong with looking at the world a certain way because it makes you feel good. But you honestly haven't a leg to stand on if you insist that others share that 'reality'. Science is only true because it is testable, mythology and mysticism don't even have that going for them.

I suppose that for the sufficiently scientifically illiterate, there perhaps isn't a difference. They trust a particular scientist's judgement, or they don't, in the same way that they trust a particular interpretation of a particular collection of mythology, or they don't. But the scientist, the scientist is different. She looks at the tests which have been done, and evaluates them, both their relevance and their reproducibility. The scientist is qualified to make their own opinion on what is and isn't useful.

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  #131  
Old 19.09.2019, 05:09
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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I don't share your faith in the Guardian's analysis. The probem is anyway that "intelligence" has been conflated with the "quality" implying that a person who has a lesser intelligence is a lesser being, which of course is not the case (unless you are a eugenicist, that is). It stands to reason that all human traits have some genetic component and "intelligence" is anyway defined by how you measure it. However, the point I was illustrating was that a scientist is not necessarily free to express his observations if these do not conform with the received view.
.

That was not the Guardian's analysis, the Guardian was basically reporting that this guy's views on race and intelligence wasn't/isn't shared by his peers.

But of course, if you are inclined to embrace marginal theories you might choose not to vaccinate your children because they'll "get" autism, for instance.

I guess this type of marginal theories can still bring some comfort to a certain group of people.... If you think more about it, not really that different from religion..
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  #132  
Old 19.09.2019, 08:33
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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I did not use the term magic, but there are things which science, as it is currently defined, can not adequately explain. Darwin did not get very far with the emergence of the first living organism from non-life and that situation has not changed in the intervening 150 or so years. Science has its boundaries. May be in the future, science will be able to acknowledge an intelligent actor which it currently can not.

That would be the one that triggered the big bang. God created heaven and earth, so it must be someone else.
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Old 19.09.2019, 08:35
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That would be the one that triggered the big bang. God created heaven and earth, so it must be someone else.
Science can never prove anything because it is always standing on the outside.
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  #134  
Old 19.09.2019, 09:25
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... the gift was opened in front of all of her friends who are 90% Muslim, who in turn all gasped and stared at my daughter wide eyed as children would. Lots of whispering and nudging ..... my daughter didn’t know where to look or how to react .
I don't think that's normal at all. Reacting in horror over a book? Yeah, sure, maybe if it was a book entitled "Why all Muslims are going to hell", I could understand it. Or is there a fear that if a Muslim reads the Bible, they'll end up converted?
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Old 19.09.2019, 09:33
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I am still a Christian, she embarrassed my daughter because the gift was opened in front of all of her friends who are 90% Muslim, who in turn all gasped and stared at my daughter wide eyed as children would. Lots of whispering and nudging ..... my daughter didnít know where to look or how to react .

My neighbour is very concerned for me because Iíve married a Muslim and he wonít convert to Christianity. To be fair we as a couple have been dealing with it for years and years and we just shrug it off but when your children are targeted it feels very different. Itís been a learning curve for us , we donít want to segregate anyone so we encourage friends from all races and religions and forbid racism etc in our home. We have a good balance and we are proud of ourselves and of our girls.
My parents were 2 different religions, from fairly religious families. In the 1950Ďs, when they married, this was an interesting time. My parents were fine, I donĎt remember them arguing about religion. We were raised my motherĎs religion (Catholic) but also learned about my fatherĎs (Jewish) and attended services with him. Neither parent converted - my mother said it should be based on belief, not marriage.

There were some tensions in the extended family, but some of my relatives were/are fairly anti Semitic. The Jewish half was so small, not much trouble there. In about 8th grade, a kid asked me if my Jewish half fought with my Catholic half- an internal conflict. Apparently this guy became a Presbyterian
minister.

I guess it was curious....but anyway, iĎve not been to a Catholic mass since my mother died in 1991, and IĎm comfortable in my own agnosticism.

You donĎt have to be a single religion family, you can raise moral, science loving kids within a religion. Just donít feel bad when they relax their level of religiousness. I went to mass all through Uni, but it was more for the social/musical context. Of course, I stopped being Catholic when the church became more conservative again and I couldnĎt find a place in it.

But I would be appalled if someone gave my kid (if I had one) a Bible with the intent of influence. It would be different if the kid wanted to learn about religion. I just feel that some gifts are too personal and need to be cleared with parents - I also feel that way about makeup, piercings too.

Unfortunately, I donĎt think it is illegal. Your neighbor sounds pushy and I find that annoying.
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  #136  
Old 19.09.2019, 09:50
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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I did not use the term magic, but there are things which science, as it is currently defined, can not adequately explain. Darwin did not get very far with the emergence of the first living organism from non-life and that situation has not changed in the intervening 150 or so years. Science has its boundaries. May be in the future, science will be able to acknowledge an intelligent actor which it currently can not.




Scientists may well have all those good qualities in their limited areas of speciality. However, to accept that there would be a purely scientific explanation that covers all the areas I previously mentioned from starting from nothing to world we currently inhabit, and further that is simply all the product of a chain of accidents, is in itself an act of faith. For example, if you were presented with what purported to be a theory of how matter and energy came from nothing, would you be able to evaluate or would you simply take it on faith that the theory was plausible ?



He did fluctuate in his beliefs so he was not the best example. But on the issue of life emerging from non-life in his Origin of Species he uses the biblical metaphor from Genesis of life being breathed into some primordial form. The "load of rubbish" is your own short summary of complex article.



Try to apply "it just was" to step before that. The transformation from non-life to life. Accident or design or "just was" ?



I don't share your faith in the Guardian's analysis. The probem is anyway that "intelligence" has been conflated with the "quality" implying that a person who has a lesser intelligence is a lesser being, which of course is not the case (unless you are a eugenicist, that is). It stands to reason that all human traits have some genetic component and "intelligence" is anyway defined by how you measure it. However, the point I was illustrating was that a scientist is not necessarily free to express his observations if these do not conform with the received view.


I'm sorry that you felt the need to express yourself like that.
So, essentially you're telling us that because science has not yet explained everything there must be intelligent design, and also that you believe black people are naturally less intelligent than white people (it wasn't the Guardians analysis that said the scientist was prejudiced, it was his peers, but never mind that wee technicality, eh?). It's always amazing how threads like this bring out the more 'notable' individuals.

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  #137  
Old 19.09.2019, 09:52
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

Now all we need to complete the party would be a satanist couple to move in one floor below.
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Old 19.09.2019, 10:18
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Scientists may well have all those good qualities in their limited areas of speciality. However, to accept that there would be a purely scientific explanation that covers all the areas I previously mentioned from starting from nothing to world we currently inhabit, and further that is simply all the product of a chain of accidents, is in itself an act of faith. For example, if you were presented with what purported to be a theory of how matter and energy came from nothing, would you be able to evaluate or would you simply take it on faith that the theory was plausible ?
Can't add much to what ThomasSSS said but "having faith" in endless solid examples of evidence which give a highly plausible explanation of how the universe came about, as well as accepting that evidence is updated and developed as knowledge grows is (literally) worlds apart from the blind faith you need to follow a religion, which has no evidence apart from a highly dubious book which has been (ironically) scientifically debunked not to have originated when it is purported to have been.

Religion doesn't budge from its original teachings and deals in absolutes, which is always a red flag for me.

I get it. You are clearly a person of faith and that is fine but in all my years nobody and nothing has been able to present a convincing story or reason to convert me into a believer in any of the 3000+ religions on offer today.

I have more respect for the planet Jupiter than any religion. Jupiter is basically the silent protector of our planet. All hail Jupiter.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 19.09.2019 at 10:38. Reason: Used the wrong quote - d'uh!
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Old 19.09.2019, 10:50
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Religion doesn't budge from its original teachings and deals in absolutes, which is always a red flag for me.
On the contrary, as a cultural artefact, religion is constantly changing. Even members of the same church at the same time will believe very different things: add a time component to the mix and you can have wildly different interpretations and emphases on exactly the same doctrine. Go to the church down the road, chat to someone from a different denomination, listen to the views of the minister's cousin in Nigeria, and the variations approach infinity.

It's what makes religion so interesting!
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Old 19.09.2019, 10:50
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Re: Neighbour forcing her religion on our children. Legal????

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I have more respect for the planet Jupiter than any religion. Jupiter is basically the silent protector of our planet. All hail Jupiter.
The Romans were right all along. Good job they set up all those temples, otherwise who knows what the planetgod might have got up to?
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