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Old 15.12.2019, 20:27
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Any chances to sue the employer?

For forbidding time off to visiting doctor that had big consequences to the health and was reason of leaving a job and closing resident permit.

If yes, can you share a lawyer contacts who can help.
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Old 15.12.2019, 20:30
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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For forbidding time off to visiting doctor that had big consequences to the health and was reason of leaving a job and closing resident permit.

If yes, can you share a lawyer contacts who can help.
Depends, were you not allowed to go at the time you wanted nor given other possibilities? Did you go on sick leave?

Why did your employer deny your going to a doctor?
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Old 15.12.2019, 20:52
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

Sue, in Switzerland?

Tom
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Old 15.12.2019, 21:09
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

You can attempt to sue them for whatever you please, if the court will accept the case and how it will rule is a whole different matter and depends on the exact situation.
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Old 15.12.2019, 22:23
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

Is she that bad?

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Sue, in Switzerland?
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Old 16.12.2019, 03:53
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

The general practice of “sue, sue, sue” that is known in some other countries is not common in Switzerland. Even if anyone is ever awarded damages, the amounts are typically only to cover actual real losses incurred, and not usually to compensate for pain and suffering.

I see from your other threads that mid-2012 you had used crutches and then no longer needed them, and that you resigned from your work in Switzerland and thereby ending your B-permit.

If you are considering trying to start a case about those events that took place 7 or 8 years ago, I think you have a very small chance of succeeding in any part of it, because it is too long ago. In any event, a Swiss Court, if trying to quantify losses, would look at your income, and since you yourself resigned, that would be taken as your own free will and choice.

In 2014 you asked about moving back to Switzerland. Did that work out for you? If you did, in fact, move back to Switzerland and you now have questions about a different, more current situation, then perhaps you might have a case. If you are currently not living in Switzerland, though, in practice it is likely to be difficult to push that through.

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Depends, were you not allowed to go at the time you wanted nor given other possibilities? Did you go on sick leave?

Why did your employer deny your going to a doctor?
This. Good questions.
The answers would go towards trying to show which part was the responsibility of the employer, and which part was the employee's own responsibility.
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Old 16.12.2019, 09:32
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

The correct process is to ignore your employer's ban on you visiting a doctor, get fired for ignoring it and then suing them for breach of contract.
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Old 17.12.2019, 04:48
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

Thank you for very detailed answer and reviewing my history.
People from my job were complete assholes.
- They pushed me to resign
- They did not give me any information about Swiss law that protecting me in case I got fired.
- They behave very badly with me.
- My income dropped very significantly and lost my residence. When I realized that it was a chance to get residence back, time was up.

I don't need answers based on 'nothing'. I need advice about lawyer who can review my case and give a real situation overview based on experience.

I live and work in the US. In case that all of this happens here I have no doubt that I win a case.

And yes, I'm not sure about Switzerland.

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The general practice of “sue, sue, sue” that is known in some other countries is not common in Switzerland. Even if anyone is ever awarded damages, the amounts are typically only to cover actual real losses incurred, and not usually to compensate for pain and suffering.

I see from your other threads that mid-2012 you had used crutches and then no longer needed them, and that you resigned from your work in Switzerland and thereby ending your B-permit.

If you are considering trying to start a case about those events that took place 7 or 8 years ago, I think you have a very small chance of succeeding in any part of it, because it is too long ago. In any event, a Swiss Court, if trying to quantify losses, would look at your income, and since you yourself resigned, that would be taken as your own free will and choice.

In 2014 you asked about moving back to Switzerland. Did that work out for you? If you did, in fact, move back to Switzerland and you now have questions about a different, more current situation, then perhaps you might have a case. If you are currently not living in Switzerland, though, in practice it is likely to be difficult to push that through.


This. Good questions.
The answers would go towards trying to show which part was the responsibility of the employer, and which part was the employee's own responsibility.
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Old 17.12.2019, 04:53
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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The correct process is to ignore your employer's ban on you visiting a doctor, get fired for ignoring it and then suing them for breach of contract.
I agree. I wish I knew it before I resigned by my own will
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Old 17.12.2019, 12:53
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

I'm sorry to say this, and I doubt that you will like hearing it, but there is probably nothing you can do.

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Thank you for very detailed answer and reviewing my history.
....
I need advice about lawyer who can review my case and give a real situation overview based on experience.
Admittedly, I'm not a lawyer, so what I write here is based on having lived Switzerland for quite a long time, listened to a lot of people, and read a lot, and after a while one develops a sense of how legal procedures work (and don't work) here. I do believe that if you were to consult a lawyer, the first question would be: "Did you yourself resign?" and everything else follows from that.

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I live and work in the US. In case that all of this happens here I have no doubt that I win a case.
In some other countries, there is a lot more protection for consumers and employees, than here in Switzerland. Here, purchase transactions, subscriptions, rental contracts, and employment contracts are seen as fully binding, so that anyone who wants to terminate the contract may do so at any time, as long as they fulfil the conditions of termination (often a notice period, sometimes a fee).

The default mind-set here, both in people's manner as well as in the principle of the law, is that each adult must bear the full responsibility of deciding upon their own actions, has a duty to inform themselves about the effects of their choices, and to bear the responsibility for the consequences of any decision they take.

This means there is very little concept, here, of "they should have told me". There is no notion of the bigger, stronger party having a duty to the plain citizen to explain to them what they're getting themselves into, or out of, as the case may be.

If the contract I signed says I have to do x, y, and z, then I am bound to do x, y and z and, if ever I deviate from what I have agreed to do, to pay the price or suffer the penalties of my defaulting from the conditions to which I agreed. Any kind of "severance payment" or "termination settlement" is virtually unknown in Switzerland, except for the top management positions, where a "golden handshake" or "golden parachute" is frequently given upon termination.

Specifically about employment:
Any employee is free to resign at any time, and any employer is just as fully free to end the contract at any time. (There are very few exceptions, such as pregnancy.) There is no legal obligation to go through a procedure of verbal and written warnings, etc., as known in some other countries. The notice period must be respected and fulfilled, unless the employer and the employee agree to some other terms, at the time of termination.

If your manager asked you: "Won't you please resign?" and you said: "Ok, okay," and resigned, this is no different, contractually, from your having, without any pressure from your manager, resigned of your own accord just because you wanted to, yourself.

Either way, you would both have ordinarily been bound by the contractual notice period, typically one or two or three months. There are three ways that the termination can be worked out:
  1. You have to work during the full notice period, and they have to pay your salary. There might be some space for using up your accrued vacation during the notice period.
  2. Some employers grant so-called "garden leave" in which they do continue to pay the salary during the notice period, but the employee should no longer come to work.
  3. However, there is a quicker and more brutal way to end an employment contract. If the manager said: "Okay, thanks for your resignation. Let's just stop this immediately. Let's both sign here that the contract is over, right away." Such a termination agreement may contain a clause which says that the employee and the employer agree that their claims on each other are herewith fulfilled and ended. That means the employee gets to walk out that door with no further regard of the employer, and also that the employer stops paying immediately. That kind of ending is used for part-time, casual work, where no-one wants to quibble about a few Francs either way. It is also sometimes used when either or both parties feel totally angra with the other side, or if one side believes that the other side has done something criminal, and they just want to Get Out Of There before anything sinks or explodes. And occasionally, it is used by employers who want (for whatever reason) to get out of paying the employee during the notice period.


Specifically about permits:
In this, too, it is deemed that it is up to you to know and understand (or to find out about) the conditions of your work permit. That's between you and the laws on permits. One of those conditions is, typically, that if you get a permit to work here, and then you no longer fulfil that reason, i.e. are no longer working here, then your permit ceases to be valid.


I can understand that if you didn't know all this beforehand, and you didn't know that you ought to have found it out by yourself beforehand, and moreover that your employer had no duty to explain the consequences to you, then it must now be very frustrating to be looking back, figuring it out now, and seeing what you lost. I'm sorry for that.

Last edited by doropfiz; 17.12.2019 at 13:13.
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Old 17.12.2019, 14:28
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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I live and work in the US. In case that all of this happens here I have no doubt that I win a case.
But it didn't, so you won't.

Tom
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Old 17.12.2019, 14:33
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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- They did not give me any information about Swiss law that protecting me in case I got fired.
because there isn't any?
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Old 17.12.2019, 14:56
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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I live and work in the US. In case that all of this happens here I have no doubt that I win a case.
Most likely not. Lawsuits are only won in the US after spending thousands in lawyer fees after contentious battles in court. In the US, you are actually nothing unless you have a substantial amount of money...and the company usually has far more than you do. At least in Switzerland you can obtain legal insurance prior to protect you in these situations.

I really don't know your story but look, we've all been screwed over before, we learn from it and move on. Stop thinking of lawsuits, stop thinking of the past...otherwise you will be stuck in it.

"No one can construct for you the bridge upon which precisely you must cross the stream of life, no one but you yourself alone." - Nietzche
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Old 17.12.2019, 15:38
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

"all my colleagues were assholes"
"nobody helped me"
"I don't want answers based on nothing, I want something concrete"

This is the typical thread where the "other side of the story" usually is very different than the one told here...

My advice: Take this situation to learn as better as you can, try to see things from a different perspective and move on.
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Old 17.12.2019, 15:58
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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...I don't need answers based on 'nothing'...
Yes. Your one line OP certainly provided the concise detail required to respond to every nuance of your situation.

You come across as a good catch for any employer...
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Old 17.12.2019, 16:05
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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Yes. Your one line OP certainly provided the concise detail required to respond to every nuance of your situation.

You come across as a good catch for any employer...
Time for him to become his own boss.
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Old 19.12.2019, 05:27
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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Time for him to become his own boss.
I became my own boss after this happened to my.
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Old 19.12.2019, 05:29
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

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"all my colleagues were assholes"
"nobody helped me"
"I don't want answers based on nothing, I want something concrete"

This is the typical thread where the "other side of the story" usually is very different than the one told here...

My advice: Take this situation to learn as better as you can, try to see things from a different perspective and move on.
No, my colleagues were nice. Asshole - only my boss. He made me responsible for own mistakes and reported very badly about me to CEO. I'm so angry to this person. Can't forget about it.
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Old 19.12.2019, 05:30
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

In general I agree.
But here if any chance to revenge exists - I'll take it

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Most likely not. Lawsuits are only won in the US after spending thousands in lawyer fees after contentious battles in court. In the US, you are actually nothing unless you have a substantial amount of money...and the company usually has far more than you do. At least in Switzerland you can obtain legal insurance prior to protect you in these situations.

I really don't know your story but look, we've all been screwed over before, we learn from it and move on. Stop thinking of lawsuits, stop thinking of the past...otherwise you will be stuck in it.

"No one can construct for you the bridge upon which precisely you must cross the stream of life, no one but you yourself alone." - Nietzche
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Old 19.12.2019, 05:32
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Re: Any chances to sue the employer?

I'm not interested in the information how to lose.
I need information how to win.

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I'm sorry to say this, and I doubt that you will like hearing it, but there is probably nothing you can do.


Admittedly, I'm not a lawyer, so what I write here is based on having lived Switzerland for quite a long time, listened to a lot of people, and read a lot, and after a while one develops a sense of how legal procedures work (and don't work) here. I do believe that if you were to consult a lawyer, the first question would be: "Did you yourself resign?" and everything else follows from that.


In some other countries, there is a lot more protection for consumers and employees, than here in Switzerland. Here, purchase transactions, subscriptions, rental contracts, and employment contracts are seen as fully binding, so that anyone who wants to terminate the contract may do so at any time, as long as they fulfil the conditions of termination (often a notice period, sometimes a fee).

The default mind-set here, both in people's manner as well as in the principle of the law, is that each adult must bear the full responsibility of deciding upon their own actions, has a duty to inform themselves about the effects of their choices, and to bear the responsibility for the consequences of any decision they take.

This means there is very little concept, here, of "they should have told me". There is no notion of the bigger, stronger party having a duty to the plain citizen to explain to them what they're getting themselves into, or out of, as the case may be.

If the contract I signed says I have to do x, y, and z, then I am bound to do x, y and z and, if ever I deviate from what I have agreed to do, to pay the price or suffer the penalties of my defaulting from the conditions to which I agreed. Any kind of "severance payment" or "termination settlement" is virtually unknown in Switzerland, except for the top management positions, where a "golden handshake" or "golden parachute" is frequently given upon termination.

Specifically about employment:
Any employee is free to resign at any time, and any employer is just as fully free to end the contract at any time. (There are very few exceptions, such as pregnancy.) There is no legal obligation to go through a procedure of verbal and written warnings, etc., as known in some other countries. The notice period must be respected and fulfilled, unless the employer and the employee agree to some other terms, at the time of termination.

If your manager asked you: "Won't you please resign?" and you said: "Ok, okay," and resigned, this is no different, contractually, from your having, without any pressure from your manager, resigned of your own accord just because you wanted to, yourself.

Either way, you would both have ordinarily been bound by the contractual notice period, typically one or two or three months. There are three ways that the termination can be worked out:
  1. You have to work during the full notice period, and they have to pay your salary. There might be some space for using up your accrued vacation during the notice period.
  2. Some employers grant so-called "garden leave" in which they do continue to pay the salary during the notice period, but the employee should no longer come to work.
  3. However, there is a quicker and more brutal way to end an employment contract. If the manager said: "Okay, thanks for your resignation. Let's just stop this immediately. Let's both sign here that the contract is over, right away." Such a termination agreement may contain a clause which says that the employee and the employer agree that their claims on each other are herewith fulfilled and ended. That means the employee gets to walk out that door with no further regard of the employer, and also that the employer stops paying immediately. That kind of ending is used for part-time, casual work, where no-one wants to quibble about a few Francs either way. It is also sometimes used when either or both parties feel totally angra with the other side, or if one side believes that the other side has done something criminal, and they just want to Get Out Of There before anything sinks or explodes. And occasionally, it is used by employers who want (for whatever reason) to get out of paying the employee during the notice period.


Specifically about permits:
In this, too, it is deemed that it is up to you to know and understand (or to find out about) the conditions of your work permit. That's between you and the laws on permits. One of those conditions is, typically, that if you get a permit to work here, and then you no longer fulfil that reason, i.e. are no longer working here, then your permit ceases to be valid.


I can understand that if you didn't know all this beforehand, and you didn't know that you ought to have found it out by yourself beforehand, and moreover that your employer had no duty to explain the consequences to you, then it must now be very frustrating to be looking back, figuring it out now, and seeing what you lost. I'm sorry for that.
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