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Old 04.01.2020, 14:30
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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That's why I drive in my car only. I mean, riding a tram is like taking along hitch-hikers. And what did we learn about those?
Yes?
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Old 04.01.2020, 15:10
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Yes?
We learnt that hitch hiking can be very dangerous!

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Old 04.01.2020, 15:31
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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We learnt the hitch hiking can be very dangerous!
It was a rhetorical question.

We learned that at times it was popular and not everybody has the means nor wants to endulge in a private transport.

Public transport is an awesome exercise in sociability. Makes me feel so integrated, except perhaps that readiness/automacity to give up my seat. It is a warm thing to do without asking, I think, people seem to appreciate.
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Old 04.01.2020, 15:34
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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It was a rhetorical question.

We learned that at times it was popular and not everybody has the means nor wants to endulge in a private transport.

Public transport is an awesome exercise in sociability. Makes me feel so integragrared, except perhaps that readiness/automacity to give up my seat. It is a warm thing to do without asking, I think, people seem to appreciate.
I wish I could be so integragrared like you!
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Old 04.01.2020, 16:05
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

Although it does not match my own experiences as a commuter with mobility difficulties, I must say that it's heartening to read that many of you have seen helpful behavior.

I will put in a plea for my fellow wobblies out there, though:

Far more helpful than offering a seat (which honestly many of us do not need or want or even can't use) simply being more aware when rushing on and off the trains and platform is the best thing you can do to truly help a commuter with disabilities or mobility challenges.

Most of us don't need help - we just need not to be pushed or tripped. Train and tram steps and platform stairs are the real danger zones. A few seconds' attention (Is the person in front of me going slower for a reason? Am I about to kick her crutches out from under her?) is all it takes to help make public transportation safer and accessible.

Vielen Dank im voraus...

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  #46  
Old 04.01.2020, 16:13
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Although it does not match my own experiences as a commuter with mobility difficulties, I must say that it's heartening to read that many of you have seen helpful behavior.

I will put in a plea for my fellow wobblies out there, though:

Far more helpful than offering a seat (which honestly many of us do not need or want or even can't use, simply being more aware when rushing on and off the trains and platform is the best thing you can do to truly help a commuter with disabilities or mobility challenges.

Most of us don't need help - we just need not to be pushed or tripped. Train and tram steps and platform stairs are the real danger zones. A few seconds' attention (Is the person in front of me going slower for a reason? Am I about to kick her crutches out from under her?) is all it takes to help make public transportation safer and accessible.

Vielen Dank im voraus...
Lunchtime in central Zürich can be the most dangerous time. When all these deranged hungry office workers break out and madly run around looking for some scraps of food
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Old 04.01.2020, 17:09
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Lunchtime in central Zürich can be the most dangerous time. When all these deranged hungry office workers break out and madly run around looking for some scraps of food
There are certainly a few rush hours which should be avoided when or if possible, no doubts.

However, it would be nice if everyone payed a bit more attention to people who move slower, regardless of reasons - they may not wear crutches but can be sick or unwell otherwise. And there are little people (kids) who can get pushed over or stamped on by people who are in a terrible hurry.

@melloncolie, I sympathise with the sentiment, hope this message gets read by people inclined to elbow their way in or out of trains, trams etc. or be impatient with folks who can't help being slower than others. We all have busy lives, our problems, have ourselves or our kids to take care of, but we somehow have to peacefully co-exist with others who might be just in the same situation.

Last edited by greenmount; 04.01.2020 at 17:19.
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Old 04.01.2020, 17:26
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

On a very busy tram in GE just before christmas, an elderly lady came on and walked to an area with a load of teenagers.. The nearest to her, a girl stood up and offered her place, then a boy also offered, and another.. she said no thanks, there's an empty seat just there, I'll just take that..
She sat down amongst them and went into her handbag and produced a bag of chocolates and gave handed them out to the teens saying that she carries them with her to thank people who have been nice. She was quite a character and chatted and laughed with them all .. Nice to see.
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  #49  
Old 04.01.2020, 17:28
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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On a very busy tram in GE just before christmas, an elderly lady came on and walked to an area with a load of teenagers.. The nearest to her, a girl stood up and offered her place, then a boy also offered, and another.. she said no thanks, there's an empty seat just there, I'll just take that..
She sat down amongst them and went into her handbag and produced a bag of chocolates and gave handed them out to the teens saying that she carries them with her to thank people who have been nice. She was quite a character and chatted and laughed with them all .. Nice to see.
For a moment there I thought you were going to say "went into her handbag and produced a bag of condoms ".
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Old 04.01.2020, 18:19
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Far more helpful than offering a seat (which honestly many of us do not need or want or even can't use) simply being more aware when rushing on and off the trains and platform is the best thing you can do to truly help a commuter with disabilities or mobility challenges.

Most of us don't need help - we just need not to be pushed or tripped. Train and tram steps and platform stairs are the real danger zones. A few seconds' attention (Is the person in front of me going slower for a reason? Am I about to kick her crutches out from under her?) is all it takes to help make public transportation safer and accessible.

Vielen Dank im voraus...
Yes. This is important. And as I've posted elsewhere, this too is something one can just ask for, politely and clearly.

When you're in the train/tram needing to get out, but before reaching the stop, you can say to the two or three people standing nearest the door: "Excuse me, I'm sorry, when I get out, I'm a bit slower than most, and I must take care not to be knocked off my feet and fall. Would you please stand here and hold the door open for me, and keep the way clear until I'm properly out of the tram?"

Similarly, when you are on the platform outside, waiting for the tram or train to approach, you can appeal to someone who is also about to embark: "Please, would you let me get in before you? I'm slow, and I'm afraid that someone might push past me from behind, and knock me over. I must avoid falling. Could you please just stand behind me and wait for a moment, until I'm properly in the tram?"

I feel confident that such a clear request will work, and someone will properly shield you, blocking the way for others, so that no-one can push past and knock you down the stairs. I've seen it work, and never seen it denied.

Additional tips:
  • Just before embarking and disembarking, wear a hat with a very wide brim. It claims your space at the level that people can see. After all, if there are many people around, they can see your head but they cannot see your legs. Whether or not they become aware of your physical need, they are less likely to push against you if there is a risk, to them, of the embarassment of dislodging your hat.
  • Wear a bandage around your hand, even if it is your hips or legs that are the source of your impairment. It sends a clear message (there's pain, here, take care not to hurt this person) again, at a level that people are more likely to notice than at your legs/feet.
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Old 04.01.2020, 18:46
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Additional tips:
  • Just before embarking and disembarking, wear a hat with a very wide brim. It claims your space at the level that people can see. After all, if there are many people around, they can see your head but they cannot see your legs. Whether or not they become aware of your physical need, they are less likely to push against you if there is a risk, to them, of the embarassment of dislodging your hat.
  • Wear a bandage around your hand, even if it is your hips or legs that are the source of your impairment. It sends a clear message (there's pain, here, take care not to hurt this person) again, at a level that people are more likely to notice than at your legs/feet.
Sorry but this is really absurd. Is EF trying to solve a non-problem here, given the number of of and handicapped people that get along fine in public transport?
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Old 04.01.2020, 18:56
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Yes. This is important. And as I've posted elsewhere, this too is something one can just ask for, politely and clearly.

When you're in the train/tram needing to get out, but before reaching the stop, you can say to the two or three people standing nearest the door: "Excuse me, I'm sorry, when I get out, I'm a bit slower than most, and I must take care not to be knocked off my feet and fall. Would you please stand here and hold the door open for me, and keep the way clear until I'm properly out of the tram?"

Similarly, when you are on the platform outside, waiting for the tram or train to approach, you can appeal to someone who is also about to embark: "Please, would you let me get in before you? I'm slow, and I'm afraid that someone might push past me from behind, and knock me over. I must avoid falling. Could you please just stand behind me and wait for a moment, until I'm properly in the tram?"

I feel confident that such a clear request will work, and someone will properly shield you, blocking the way for others, so that no-one can push past and knock you down the stairs. I've seen it work, and never seen it denied.

Additional tips:
  • Just before embarking and disembarking, wear a hat with a very wide brim. It claims your space at the level that people can see. After all, if there are many people around, they can see your head but they cannot see your legs. Whether or not they become aware of your physical need, they are less likely to push against you if there is a risk, to them, of the embarassment of dislodging your hat.
  • Wear a bandage around your hand, even if it is your hips or legs that are the source of your impairment. It sends a clear message (there's pain, here, take care not to hurt this person) again, at a level that people are more likely to notice than at your legs/feet.
Is this what you had in mind?

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  #53  
Old 04.01.2020, 20:39
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Sorry but this is really absurd. Is EF trying to solve a non-problem here, given the number of of and handicapped people that get along fine in public transport?
Yes, many handicapped people do get along fine in public transport. They each will have developed their own strategy, from a range of options.

Some, like Meloncollie (and she is not alone in this), have, indeed, experienced problems, and get knocked over or pushed or fear getting bumped. That concern she has is not a "non-problem", it doesn't come from nowhere, and it is based on her experience.

The tips I repeated here, as part of a range of possible strategies, came from a physiotherapist who works with people trying to maintain or regain their independence and mobility, and from a woman who volunteers in an organisation in a German railway station, helping travellers who are vulnerable.
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Old 04.01.2020, 20:56
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Sorry but this is really absurd. Is EF trying to solve a non-problem here, given the number of of and handicapped people that get along fine in public transport?
Fine is the way you see it, asking them might get you different views. I am pretty sure they have their own struggles, even though it's better than in many other places.
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Old 04.01.2020, 23:04
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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Yes. This is important. And as I've posted elsewhere, this too is something one can just ask for, politely and clearly.

When you're in the train/tram needing to get out, but before reaching the stop, you can say to the two or three people standing nearest the door: "Excuse me, I'm sorry, when I get out, I'm a bit slower than most, and I must take care not to be knocked off my feet and fall. Would you please stand here and hold the door open for me, and keep the way clear until I'm properly out of the tram?"

Similarly, when you are on the platform outside, waiting for the tram or train to approach, you can appeal to someone who is also about to embark: "Please, would you let me get in before you? I'm slow, and I'm afraid that someone might push past me from behind, and knock me over. I must avoid falling. Could you please just stand behind me and wait for a moment, until I'm properly in the tram?"

I feel confident that such a clear request will work, and someone will properly shield you, blocking the way for others, so that no-one can push past and knock you down the stairs. I've seen it work, and never seen it denied.

Additional tips:
  • Just before embarking and disembarking, wear a hat with a very wide brim. It claims your space at the level that people can see. After all, if there are many people around, they can see your head but they cannot see your legs. Whether or not they become aware of your physical need, they are less likely to push against you if there is a risk, to them, of the embarassment of dislodging your hat.
  • Wear a bandage around your hand, even if it is your hips or legs that are the source of your impairment. It sends a clear message (there's pain, here, take care not to hurt this person) again, at a level that people are more likely to notice than at your legs/feet.

How pedantic can you get ?
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Old 04.01.2020, 23:14
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

Doropfiz, I think you have misunderstood my post.

I do not want anyone's active help, and I certainly do not need 'shielding', which smacks of a very patronizing attitude towards those who are less physically able.

No, what I - and the people I know who have mobility difficulties with Swiss public transportation - ask for is the same common courtesy that should be afforded to all. Look up from your phone/book/newspaper/personal bubble and try not to push people down the stairs. Anyone, able bodies or otherwise.
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Old 04.01.2020, 23:29
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

Yes, meloncollie, in that case I certainly did misunderstand your post. I did think you wanted active help. Sorry.

Personally, I don't think the idea of shielding or being shielded is patronizing. It's more a matter, at least as I intended it, of someone standing in the gap, just as holding the door open is a practical and kind thing to do.

I do understand, now, that you were making a more general appealing for awareness. That would be nice, yes, if the whole commuter world could be that alert.

As I experience it, though, most passengers are not attentive in that way. I don't think that's likely to improve, either, as our cities become more congested and the various pressures of life make people more tired and the electronics become more of a refuge, more of a bubble into which many retreat.

It is for those reasons that I think that a specific, direct request is much more likely to get immediate positive results than your appealing for - though I actually happen to agree with you on that - the world to be a nicer place in which common courtesy is afforded to all.
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Old 04.01.2020, 23:47
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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How pedantic can you get ?
It's not just that but unrealistic - a complicated operation consisting of 8-10 sentences and an outfit, a costume of sorts... Nobody wants to feel that different.

A rush hour on a public transport is an organic mess, in any case, for anyone. People are genuinely helpful if one signals.

It is good to practice rides with a friend or "embark" and "disembark" through the front door where the driver sees you and will wait.
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Old 05.01.2020, 00:51
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

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As I experience it, though, most passengers are not attentive in that way. I don't think that's likely to improve, either, as our cities become more congested and the various pressures of life make people more tired and the electronics become more of a refuge, more of a bubble into which many retreat.

It is for those reasons that I think that a specific, direct request is much more likely to get immediate positive results than your appealing for - though I actually happen to agree with you on that - the world to be a nicer place in which common courtesy is afforded to all.
I've written in a previous post that it can be tricky to offer a seat and so it is with other kind of help. And with asking for help.

I agree with you on this specific part of your post but don't know what the solution would be. Many people can't ask for help the way you or the respective therapist proposed, it seems too complicated. Or it can be, for many. I think that, at the end of the day, one has to rely on the goodwill of other people and on their awareness, and educating each other is not such a bad idea. Wearing a hat with a wide brim, for instance, can be a big no-no for some people. There must be other strategies at hand. Educating the public is part of it, why not.

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Old 06.01.2020, 12:41
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Re: People not offering their seat to elderly, injured or heavily pregnant ladies

Here's a secret tip. Always sit or stand at the front of tram or bus. The g-forces are are much less there
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