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Old 14.01.2020, 15:05
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Re: gender inequality

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That is indeed a very nice solution, but not one that most can do...especially for many expat families who do not have family nearby to help out.
Not just that but it takes cca 10 years for the trailing spouses I know of to rebuild their careers here. If they manage. And they arrive and have kids, or arrive with small ones. Not knowing anything about here and having limited social life since the work socializing isn't there and other bonds require time and investment. And often language.

The 1/4 days of home/work scenario works really well when they can afford it. And even for locals and their traditionally solid family support - it is not easy.

It is not easy anywhere. Make daycare free like in Sweden and there are no more couples nor families. Girls prefer to pull it all off by themselves, the stats are interesting.

The set up here is to give a priority to families that have been here for generations. Who would blame such system, though. It is a priori geared towards equality but supported by older generations. Considering that folks retire here relatively early, unlike ie. yanks I know in the US or professionals in CZ, it is logical. Grannies and grampas are quite solicited here. The family is a pretty tight knit, socio-economical unit here.
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  #62  
Old 14.01.2020, 15:08
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Re: gender inequality

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Do you think it is reasonable that 5300 CHF per month is the normal childcare cost for two children? That's a good portion of a well paid salary, far more than any taxable amount. Many women opt out of working due to the high cost of childcare and therefore take 4-5 years off of work to raise their children until they are in normal school. After they are in regular school, they have to pay 1100 per month for lunch and after school care. Not to mention how hard it is for them to be hired back into the workplace after taking a few years off.
Dividing 5300 between 2 salaries isn't the same thing, though is it? Why do you assume that just the mother is paying, are you suggesting that the father just keeps his own money for himself?

Using that amount as an equivalent tax amount to justify the reasoning of how expensive it is is also wrong because then you would have to assume that elsewhere childcare is free of charge. If it is FOC, then don't forget to consider the eye-watering tax rates.

If your income is sufficiently low, you qualify for assistance and subsidised childcare places. Same for after-school care. But you have to bear in mind that they will take both parent's salaries into consideration because it's not assumed that only the mother will be paying .
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Old 14.01.2020, 15:30
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Re: gender inequality

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Dividing 5300 between 2 salaries isn't the same thing, though is it? Why do you assume that just the mother is paying, are you suggesting that the father just keeps his own money for himself?
If a married mother is making 6300 CHF net per month, why in the world would she spend almost 90% of her salary on childcare? There are costs associated with going to the workplace as well, she could therefore be in the negative at the end of the month just from having a job and children. That's my point, she might as well quit her job, stay at home and live off the husband's salary and not have to pay childcare...which is what many mothers end up doing.
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Old 14.01.2020, 15:32
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Re: gender inequality

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If a married mother is making 6300 CHF net per month, why in the world would she spend almost 90% of her salary on childcare? There are costs associated with going to the workplace as well, she could therefore be in the negative at the end of the month just from having a job and children. That's my point, she might as well quit her job, stay at home and live off the husband's salary and not have to pay childcare...which is what many mothers end up doing.
If you are so full of gender-equality you should consider that it is not always the mother staying at home or the mother being the one with the lowest income. You make a joke of yourself.
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  #65  
Old 14.01.2020, 15:33
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Re: gender inequality

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If a married mother is making 6300 CHF net per month, why in the world would she spend almost 90% of her salary on childcare?

She doesn´t have to, the father can/should pay his part.
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Old 14.01.2020, 15:34
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Re: gender inequality

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If you are so full of gender-equality you should consider that it is not always the mother staying at home or the mother being the one with the lowest income. You make a joke of yourself.
I'm sorry I didn't consider you in this thread Mr. Mom.
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Old 14.01.2020, 15:36
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Re: gender inequality

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If a married mother is making 6300 CHF net per month, why in the world would she spend almost 90% of her salary on childcare? There are costs associated with going to the workplace as well, she could therefore be in the negative at the end of the month just from having a job and children. That's my point, she might as well quit her job, stay at home and live off the husband's salary and not have to pay childcare...which is what many mothers end up doing.
If a married mother is making 6300 CHF why would she pay 90% of it when she has a husband who is earning money, too? Why should the husband get off scott-free from paying for it?

I don't get why you think only the mother should be paying for childcare.

When we were using childcare, both my husband and I paid for it jointly, seeing as, you know, we were both responsible for the offspring using it.
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Old 14.01.2020, 15:41
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Re: gender inequality

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If a married mother is making 6300 CHF net per month, why in the world would she spend almost 90% of her salary on childcare? There are costs associated with going to the workplace as well, she could therefore be in the negative at the end of the month just from having a job and children. That's my point, she might as well quit her job, stay at home and live off the husband's salary and not have to pay childcare...which is what many mothers end up doing.
The kids parents are both working, otherwise the no full time child care would be needed. That means that the father has a job as well, lets assume he makes the same amount. Than we would be at around 45 % of their net income.
I can't imagine any household, which differentiates between 1earned by the mother or 1 CHF earned by the father. Why should they?
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  #69  
Old 14.01.2020, 15:49
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Re: gender inequality

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If a married mother is making 6300 CHF why would she pay 90% of it when she has a husband who is earning money, too? Why should the husband get off scott-free from paying for it?

I don't get why you think only the mother should be paying for childcare.

When we were using childcare, both my husband and I paid for it jointly, seeing as, you know, we were both responsible for the offspring using it.
I guess you don't get my point...of course the husband bears the expense of the childcare too. But the childcare is only needed because both parents are working and if the salary of one of those parents barely covers the childcare, then why should he/she both be working. Tongue is getting twisted now...

I'm confused myself why this isn't obvious, as I have known many of my colleagues who chose to have one person at home because of this. It isn't easy to be a two parent working household...
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Old 14.01.2020, 15:57
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Re: gender inequality

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I guess you don't get my point...of course the husband bears the expense of the childcare too. But the childcare is only needed because both parents are working and if the salary of one of those parents barely covers the childcare, then why should he/she both be working. Tongue is getting twisted now...

I'm confused myself why this isn't obvious, as I have known many of my colleagues who chose to have one person at home because of this. It isn't easy to be a two parent working household...
I guess it's a moot point given that there are fiercely contested waiting lists for childcare places here so the costs are not SO prohibitive.

Yes it's expensive but you don't see too many families on the poverty line here, either.

Most of my salary went on childcare (about maybe 65% or thereabouts depending on age) but it was worth it for those years in order that I could keep my foot in the door in the workplace. Plus I think the benefits of a pre-school environment is also worth the expense.

I get the feeling that some people view it as a dumping ground for kids but once you look at it as a paid-for and worthwhile service for children you begin to appreciate the reason for the cost.
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Old 14.01.2020, 16:00
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Re: gender inequality

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I guess you don't get my point...of course the husband bears the expense of the childcare too. But the childcare is only needed because both parents are working and if the salary of one of those parents barely covers the childcare, then why should he/she both be working. Tongue is getting twisted now...

I'm confused myself why this isn't obvious, as I have known many of my colleagues who chose to have one person at home because of this. It isn't easy to be a two parent working household...
I think there's been a misunderstanding.

I think folk are confused as to why only the mum should pay, but that's not what you meant. You meant that overall, if 90% of a second salary goes on childcare then lots of couples can't see the point of working full time for, essentially, very little additional take home once all costs have been paid - whoever pays them.

Last edited by RufusB; 14.01.2020 at 17:55. Reason: On
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Old 14.01.2020, 16:10
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Re: gender inequality

I love it how you ladies really kept the thread on topic - accounting practices of the Swiss tax offices...
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  #73  
Old 14.01.2020, 16:43
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Re: gender inequality

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If a married mother is making 6300 CHF net per month, why in the world would she spend almost 90% of her salary on childcare? There are costs associated with going to the workplace as well, she could therefore be in the negative at the end of the month just from having a job and children. That's my point, she might as well quit her job, stay at home and live off the husband's salary and not have to pay childcare...which is what many mothers end up doing.
Because those kind of costs are temporary and the cost to interrupt a career you love and are good at could be far greater.

You also fail to account for example, for the pension plan contribution of the company and ability to deduct the child care costs if both parents work. Not to mention the security coming from having two jobs if one person is made redundant.

The really high Kita costs are very temporary in the span of a working life. In our case with kids 2.5 years apart, we had 2 yrs of that. That is not long on a 40 yrs career. Then the costs drop dramatically.

Granted those years are not easy/fun from a financial standpoint but it's a choice like many others.

K

Last edited by kri; 14.01.2020 at 18:14. Reason: Spelling
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Old 14.01.2020, 18:13
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Re: gender inequality

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It’s normal & anybody who says differently isn’t paying attention or in support of it.

I was recently traveling with a colleague and her two children. Border control at Zurich Airport asked her point blank where the breadwinner of the family was. Never mind that they are divorced and he is unemployed...
I would have replied right in front of you, and handed over my divorce papers.

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The paper should be notarized and apostillaed, so yes.

Tom
My daughter’s father lives in a different country, I can’t even get a real signature, I just rely on a print out, it is a lot of time and money to be notarized, not many people will do it.

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I remember vaguely a story a year or two ago seen in the newspaper, where the Bern tax authority refused to refund the income tax to the account of a wife, asking for the husband's account. The wife filed an appeal. I don't remember exactly what happened after. It seemed that the authorities apologized. It was not that they do not refund to wives, it's that the refund account should be (possibly jointly) under the name of the "identifying person" of the declaration, and in reality the "identifying person" of a family has almost always been the husband. They also have changed the system afterwards so that the refund can be made to account under any name included in the declaration.
That is kind of what I was thinking, tax forms have main person and second person, if the husband is the main person filling out the forms it makes sense that the refund goes to a joint account or his account. Next time, OP should fill out the tax form as the main person and then the refund will come to the joint or her.
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Old 14.01.2020, 18:17
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Re: gender inequality

Has anyone actually thought how easy it would be to forge a ‘permission letter’? Having one actually proves nothing.
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  #76  
Old 14.01.2020, 18:33
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Re: gender inequality

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That is kind of what I was thinking, tax forms have main person and second person, if the husband is the main person filling out the forms it makes sense that the refund goes to a joint account or his account. Next time, OP should fill out the tax form as the main person and then the refund will come to the joint or her.
Except that you do not have this option everywhere. Zurich Kanton assumes the husband to be the main person. You do not get a choice (info until 2017).

Also when you leave the Kanton, the husband gets a letter to his name as "departure" and somewhere in it is says "wife Mrs X will accompany" (nevermind said wife is the one with the job abroad). Each child got own letter. I obviously "belong" to my husband
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Old 14.01.2020, 18:38
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Re: gender inequality

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Has anyone actually thought how easy it would be to forge a ‘permission letter’? Having one actually proves nothing.
Of course that it proves nothing. That's why it should be notarized and apostilled. Cost me 50fr.
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Old 14.01.2020, 18:38
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Re: gender inequality

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Has anyone actually thought how easy it would be to forge a ‘permission letter’? Having one actually proves nothing.
I was pulled out of line with my kids in Amsterdam along with a father traveling with his kids. We got taken to security, I showed the phone messages that made it clear my ex knew. Security talked to my kids and then let us through.

The poor guy next to me was still fighting his case as he had no phone msgs and his kids were small.

No idea why it happened and I've tried since to have a letter with a passport copy, which is what they told me to get for the way home. They are not easy to get as it something my ex can control and hold back, so I rely on the phone messages as back up.
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Old 14.01.2020, 19:26
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Re: gender inequality

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My colleague has 2 girls, works 80%, one day per week from home. Husband the same, 2 days daycare and one day granny. Works out well for them.
Not all companies allow their employees to work part time. And as a foreigner you're not in the position to "protest" too much. I kind of agree with Susie-Q on multiple plans. Both parents working - ideal. Not always possible though. And I don't necessarily mean financially. Logistically can be a nightmare.
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Old 14.01.2020, 19:37
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Re: gender inequality

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It’s normal & anybody who says differently isn’t paying attention or in support of it.

I was recently traveling with a colleague and her two children. Border control at Zurich Airport asked her point blank where the breadwinner of the family was. Never mind that they are divorced and he is unemployed...
Children is the keyword here
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