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  #341  
Old 23.03.2020, 10:21
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

Seems you guys can't use Wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

Do you have anything to say (like, how you came up with that "2-month Trump-truth-level" saying?) or are you guys here just for silly jokes?
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  #342  
Old 23.03.2020, 10:48
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Seems you guys can't use Wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

Do you have anything to say (like, how you came up with that "2-month Trump-truth-level" saying?) or are you guys here just for silly jokes?
Sorry Mr. Serious Guy that shares Spong Bob memes, now you're complaining about silly jokes?
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  #343  
Old 23.03.2020, 11:13
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

Europeans and the rest of the world knew since December what's going on in Wuhan. OK, let's say adding time of reaction would place us all in January. No measures taken. For how long can we blame China/"the Chinese" for our lack of reaction, preparation or for our carelessness?
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  #344  
Old 23.03.2020, 11:15
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Seems you guys can't use Wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

Do you have anything to say (like, how you came up with that "2-month Trump-truth-level" saying?) or are you guys here just for silly jokes?
I'm mostly here for the silly jokes. Solidarity to all my Chinese brothers and sisters.
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  #345  
Old 24.03.2020, 23:47
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Europeans and the rest of the world knew since December what's going on in Wuhan. OK, let's say adding time of reaction would place us all in January. No measures taken. For how long can we blame China/"the Chinese" for our lack of reaction, preparation or for our carelessness?

Can you give a source that had news about this in December?
The earliest I could find was 2020-01-04 on Zerohedge.

But it was clear something big was coming about one or two weeks later.

Governments have intelligence-agencies. They have boots on the ground. They should know a bit more than the average reader of a fringe-website like Zerohedge.
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  #346  
Old 25.03.2020, 09:12
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

As the China argument is still going strong, a quick question: We had a pandemic in 2009 known as H1N1. If you think its important that Trump still calls Covid19 "the China Virus"... which he still does... how many of you referred to H1N1 back then as "the American pig disease" instead of simply "swine flu"? I cannot recall a single person blaming the US for their slower and less radical reaction compared to Mexico back in the day either… or any blame that the US style of factory farming is a risk that might affect us all. its a virus. Shit happens. Only thing you can do is to be prepared and act according to the data you know.
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  #347  
Old 25.03.2020, 09:56
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

I think it's safe to say that Trump is proving in this exceptional time what we knew all along...

He's not up to the job of being a dignified leader.
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  #348  
Old 25.03.2020, 10:28
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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As the China argument is still going strong, a quick question: We had a pandemic in 2009 known as H1N1. If you think its important that Trump still calls Covid19 "the China Virus"... which he still does... how many of you referred to H1N1 back then as "the American pig disease" instead of simply "swine flu"? I cannot recall a single person blaming the US for their slower and less radical reaction compared to Mexico back in the day either… or any blame that the US style of factory farming is a risk that might affect us all. its a virus. Shit happens. Only thing you can do is to be prepared and act according to the data you know.
I think it's the part where China hid the truth and actively suppressed its own citizens who were trying to warn the the world about it that makes them accountable.

For some reason people who are intent on defending China's Communist government keep ignoring this inconvenient part of the story.
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  #349  
Old 25.03.2020, 11:21
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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I think it's the part where China hid the truth and actively suppressed its own citizens who were trying to warn the the world about it that makes them accountable.

For some reason people who are intent on defending China's Communist government keep ignoring this inconvenient part of the story.
It is much easier to blame someone else that it is to admit shortcomings nearer to home.

Here is a timeline of the development of the response to the virus from Wikipedia.
According to this article, the Chinese formally notified the WHO on 31. Dec 2019 about the outbreak. Dr. Li, the ophthalmologist whose information was initially suppressed had, according to the article, misdiagnosed the virus as SARS and only a day or so before the official notification to WHO. Obviously, there were parallel studies in progress. Clearly, the Chinese had to go through a learning process: Identification of the virus, confirming that it was human to human transmissible, sequencing the genome etc. A learning process which other lands should have been able to profit from. So, really, how much time would have been gained even if Dr. Li's information was not suppressed? It appears a day or so at most.
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  #350  
Old 25.03.2020, 12:42
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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It is much easier to blame someone else that it is to admit shortcomings nearer to home.

Here is a timeline of the development of the response to the virus from Wikipedia.
According to this article, the Chinese formally notified the WHO on 31. Dec 2019 about the outbreak. Dr. Li, the ophthalmologist whose information was initially suppressed had, according to the article, misdiagnosed the virus as SARS and only a day or so before the official notification to WHO. Obviously, there were parallel studies in progress. Clearly, the Chinese had to go through a learning process: Identification of the virus, confirming that it was human to human transmissible, sequencing the genome etc. A learning process which other lands should have been able to profit from. So, really, how much time would have been gained even if Dr. Li's information was not suppressed? It appears a day or so at most.
I think for those searching blame somewhere else, it's hard to look at facts, I fully agree.

Yes, China MIGHT have handled it better at the stage where it already was spreading through probably a few hundreds (it went unnoticed before) - but at that time, it was completely unknown how tricky this new Corona virus actually is. Locking down your country for something that might kill a few dozen people?

Once it became clear about the danger of it, the Chinese authorities clearly took harsh measurements.

I wonder if the China-blamers remember their comments in January, when China locked down cities and provinces to contain it? "Prison people, no freedom to move, 60 million citizens jailed", all that nonsense.. and medias in Europe and the US happily kept spreading such comments.

Preparations for it? Proper quarantine? Working tightly together with the WHO? Meeeeh. We're superior to China.. that was the thought of many here. Till it was too late.
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  #351  
Old 25.03.2020, 12:46
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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It is much easier to blame someone else that it is to admit shortcomings nearer to home.
When that someone else suppressed medical professionals and journalists from reporting the truth until it was too late then yeah, it really is easier to blame them.

It wasn't until late January that the state finally admitted what doctors already knew but were not allowed to say - that the virus was being spread from human to human.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...st-authorities
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  #352  
Old 25.03.2020, 13:41
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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When that someone else suppressed medical professionals and journalists from reporting the truth until it was too late then yeah, it really is easier to blame them.

It wasn't until late January that the state finally admitted what doctors already knew but were not allowed to say - that the virus was being spread from human to human.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...st-authorities
Funny to see you quoting from the Guardian, Times and WSJ as proper info sources. Even Trump blamed them for fake news. Please, take 3 seconds to remember that it was the Americans who voted for Mr. Trump.

Still from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-first-death

So at least on 11th Jan every part of the world was informed. Then 2 months passed, during which the Europeans didn't take any proper move. Days ago Trump was still claiming corona virus was no more than a flu, much later than human to human transmission was proven.

Admitting one's own fault can be hard. Especially when it causes great loss to yourself.

BTW read the first pages of coronavirus megathread in EF, you'd see how stupidity gradually destroy lives, like some of you are still doing in this thread.
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  #353  
Old 25.03.2020, 13:48
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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When that someone else suppressed medical professionals and journalists from reporting the truth until it was too late then yeah, it really is easier to blame them.

It wasn't until late January that the state finally admitted what doctors already knew but were not allowed to say - that the virus was being spread from human to human.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...st-authorities
Human to human (H2H) transmission:

- One of the other main arguments about the "cover-up" is that the H2H potential for the disease was actively buried. I believe this news has re-emerged in the last week or so with some health professionals in Taiwan saying they were ignored by the WHO after received statements from colleagues in Wuhan about the disease being H2H transmissible.

- This particular argument is dicey as well, because it is easy to argue in hindsight that obviously the virus is H2H capable. But when the initial cluster of cases presented, it was still under investigation if it was from a specific source and whether there was "sustained" H2H transmission versus "limited" H2H transmission.

- In hindsight, we can easily argue that the investigation and waiting for confirmation of sustained H2H transmission wasted time that could've been used to act sooner -- and I agree with that. In future, lessons might be taken to err on the side of caution to take strong measures even if a disease is thought to initially have "limited" H2H transmission.

Also, in official timeline:

2020-01-14 – WHO reports there is “limited human-to-human transmission between close contacts. WHO assesses that there was no clear evidence of sustained human-to-human transmission. https://www.who.int/csr/don/14-janua...d-ex-china/en/

So 6 days prior the the statement that it WAS transmissable between humans (on the 20th January), WHO reported "limited transmission", without any evidence for sustained one's (which is the really dangerous one..)

Again, China didn't handle this perfectly, especially in hindsight. But comparing it with the handling of it by other countries... you know the saying, stone, glass houses..
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  #354  
Old 25.03.2020, 14:00
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Funny to see you quoting from the Guardian, Times and WSJ as proper info sources. Even Trump blamed them for fake news. Please, take 3 seconds to remember that it was the Americans who voted for Mr. Trump.

Still from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-first-death

So at least on 11th Jan every part of the world was informed. Then 2 months passed, during which the Europeans didn't take any proper move. Days ago Trump was still claiming corona virus was no more than a flu, much later than human to human transmission was proven.

Admitting one's own fault can be hard. Especially when it causes great loss to yourself.

BTW read the first pages of coronavirus megathread in EF, you'd see how stupidity gradually destroy lives, like some of you are still doing in this thread.
On 11th Jan every part of the world was informed there was a virus but the Glorious State of China was still denying human to human transmission and suppressing doctors who knew better.
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  #355  
Old 25.03.2020, 14:08
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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On 11th Jan every part of the world was informed there was a virus but the Glorious State of China was still denying human to human transmission and suppressing doctors who knew better.
Using silly expressions like "Glorious State of China" how exactly help your arguments?

Since you seem to lack even basic understanding about the whole situation, maybe read first upon the difference between “limited human-to-human transmission between close contacts” and “human-to-human transmissible”

Then check the official twitter feed from the WHO, where they clearly stated on the 19th of January that it's limited transmission only.

https://twitter.com/WHOWPRO/status/1218741294291308545

One day later, when there was evidence that it was indeed “human-to-human transmissible” (not limited, stating the difference again, since apparantly some people here still don't get the difference) it was immediately changed.

But I guess that's a "coverup" if you just hate China enough..
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  #356  
Old 25.03.2020, 14:11
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Human to human (H2H) transmission:

- One of the other main arguments about the "cover-up" is that the H2H potential for the disease was actively buried. I believe this news has re-emerged in the last week or so with some health professionals in Taiwan saying they were ignored by the WHO after received statements from colleagues in Wuhan about the disease being H2H transmissible.

- This particular argument is dicey as well, because it is easy to argue in hindsight that obviously the virus is H2H capable. But when the initial cluster of cases presented, it was still under investigation if it was from a specific source and whether there was "sustained" H2H transmission versus "limited" H2H transmission.

- In hindsight, we can easily argue that the investigation and waiting for confirmation of sustained H2H transmission wasted time that could've been used to act sooner -- and I agree with that. In future, lessons might be taken to err on the side of caution to take strong measures even if a disease is thought to initially have "limited" H2H transmission.
In hindsight, suppressing doctors and journalists from telling the truth may have dire consequences.
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  #357  
Old 25.03.2020, 14:23
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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In hindsight, suppressing doctors and journalists from telling the truth may have dire consequences.
Yup, China suppressed the truth when it was most critical. Now the great Chinese propaganda machine has fired up, telling the world how effective they were at suppressing the virus and sending medical equipment to other countries.

#ChinaLiedAndPeopleDied

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2...-19-china.page
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  #358  
Old 25.03.2020, 14:32
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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In hindsight, suppressing doctors and journalists from telling the truth may have dire consequences.
Pride is the first of cardinal sins. Great book carries great wisdom that benefits all human beings, including you, my friend.
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  #359  
Old 25.03.2020, 15:15
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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So at least on 11th Jan every part of the world was informed. Then 2 months passed, during which the Europeans didn't take any proper move.
I'm working from home, my wife on kurzarbeit, the shelves of the supermarket are plentiful, and I take a walk outside every day.

From a certain perspective no one prepared for the virus, but a lot of other systems are already set in place to handle emergencies: the IT infrastructure to work from home, the unemployment salary deductions, savings and benefits payment system, the reserves of food, fuels and other products overseen by the Swiss Federal Council.

Considering the current situation in Switzerland without curfew and without major impacts, what is a proper move?
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Old 26.03.2020, 07:48
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

The BBC had this to say yesterday:

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China has a bad record on official government numbers that the world believes. It’s not down to incompetence, it's by design. Communist party dominance sometimes depends on living up to forecasts or targets - even if they aren’t actually met - and, conversely, burying reality when it shines a light on wrong doing or, worse still, failure that puts a dent in the party’s credibility to govern.

So China comes to the table, so to speak, with much scepticism awaiting it. Its GDP figures have long been regarded as more of a guide to the trends in its economy but not an accurate reflection of its actual growth.

Doubts about the official government figures on coronavirus, that are collated at 3am every morning, are fuelled by several specific issues: First, there was the (admitted) cover up and subsequent three-week delay in publicising and acting upon the outbreak.

Second, the empirical integrity of the numbers has been repeatedly questioned; just a few days ago officials in Hubei revealed that they didn’t count asymptomatic positive cases or those that didn’t require hospitalisation.

Third - and this may appear simplistic but it's an obvious question - could it really be the case that a couple of weeks ago for a short period of time there were no new confirmed cases - zero - of the virus in all of mainland China, except Hubei?
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ost_type=share
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