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  #381  
Old 07.04.2020, 15:50
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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#NoSpaceForRacists

For people wanting facts, not your silly anti-china propaganda..

And yes, a "magazine" talking about itself: "our excellent coverage of the coronavirus crisis" certainly must talk the truth, and the truth only (Trump-approved truth, of course..)

That "source" of yours of course perfectly fits into your racist worldview of black and white, where China is evil..

Full with Falun Gong nonsense as "sources" for their articles, wouldn't surprise me if it's funded through "Radio Free Asia" or other Anti-China US-agencies.

It's the UK parliament. Not sure if it's racist propaganda but at least it's the UK parliament.
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  #382  
Old 07.04.2020, 16:26
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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It's the UK parliament. Not sure if it's racist propaganda but at least it's the UK parliament.
I was talking about the second, ummm, "article" he posted.

Regarding the British parliament, I think they're massively biased British politicians having writen that "piece of paper".

I do agree that in the very start of the outbreak ('mid December), China - or better said the local staff involved at that time - did some mistakes that in hindsight could have been handled better. But at that time, no one knew what we're handling here. Till about 'mid January, most scientists, including the WHO, thought this virus was only LIMITED human to human transmisseable, which means it wouldn't have an R0 of about 3, which makes it so dangerous (together with being spreadable while you actually feel fine and have no symptoms)

Starting early January (ie, when the National gouvernment actually started to be involved), China had started to fully disclose all informations it had regarding the virus to the WHO (and thus, all Nations in the world - that includes the UK..) and shared all updates to them.

Whatever that Parliament website is claiming is a MASSIVE lie. It's like in 1984. The UK claimed that "herd immunity" and another nonsense will work, they claimed it's nothing, their overlord in the US said "15 to 0".. THEY choose to ignore the warnings! And now they try to blame China for actually acting (and getting it under control?) - it would be a comedy if it wouldn't be in such sad background.

I hope they're getting called out for it, and whoeever approved that nonsense, will face political consequences.

But then in the world of Brexit lies and Trump "truth", this is what politics in the Anglo world is about?! If you can't beat it, smear it?
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  #383  
Old 07.04.2020, 16:34
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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From the UK Parliament Foreign Affairs Committee.



https://committees.parliament.uk/com...t-coronavirus/

Also, from the Daily Telegraph in Australia. The Chinese consulate general in Sydney sent a letter to angrily denouncing its coverage of China's pandemic-related role, the newspaper responded point-by-point in a remarkable take down. Hopefully there will be more of this!

#ChinaLiedAndPeopleDied

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/bl...d33d5b569134a4
That "UK parliament" site is clearly a hoax. I also just looked at the previous "news article" there. It is focusing on that dangers journalists face for exposing the truth with absurd pronouncements like this: "Defending media freedom around the world was the FCO's priority campaign for 2019." No doubt Julian Assange, now stuck in Belmarsh prison, is a showcase beneficiary of this overarching concern for the well being of truth exposing journalists.

https://committees.parliament.uk/com...ing-the-truth/

At for the quoted article about "standing together in the fight against coronavirus", it is an extremely confrontational for a claimed attempt to solicit cooperation. I'm surprised they did not take the opportunity to refer to it as the Chinese Virus.

https://committees.parliament.uk/com...t-coronavirus/

The Telegraph (AUS) article is obviously of the same ilk. The title alone shows it cannot be taken seriously:
"Via Local Commie Underlings, Beijing Officially Disapproves"
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  #384  
Old 07.04.2020, 16:52
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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I was talking about the second, ummm, "article" he posted.

Regarding the British parliament, I think they're massively biased British politicians having writen that "piece of paper".

I do agree that in the very start of the outbreak ('mid December), China - or better said the local staff involved at that time - did some mistakes that in hindsight could have been handled better. But at that time, no one knew what we're handling here. Till about 'mid January, most scientists, including the WHO, thought this virus was only LIMITED human to human transmisseable, which means it wouldn't have an R0 of about 3, which makes it so dangerous (together with being spreadable while you actually feel fine and have no symptoms)

Starting early January (ie, when the National gouvernment actually started to be involved), China had started to fully disclose all informations it had regarding the virus to the WHO (and thus, all Nations in the world - that includes the UK..) and shared all updates to them.

Whatever that Parliament website is claiming is a MASSIVE lie. It's like in 1984. The UK claimed that "herd immunity" and another nonsense will work, they claimed it's nothing, their overlord in the US said "15 to 0".. THEY choose to ignore the warnings! And now they try to blame China for actually acting (and getting it under control?) - it would be a comedy if it wouldn't be in such sad background.

I hope they're getting called out for it, and whoeever approved that nonsense, will face political consequences.

But then in the world of Brexit lies and Trump "truth", this is what politics in the Anglo world is about?! If you can't beat it, smear it?
The Wuhan lockdown was on Jan 23. Since then, the virus has been in all newspapers around the world. The UK had the "herd immunity" and "business as usual" strategy until March 12 or 13th. That's 8 weeks between both events.

A privileged information channel like the WHO would have made the information sooner. Let's assume the ideal case where the privileged channel works and the info arrives a month earlier. That would have been 12 weeks.

What preparation can be done during 12 weeks that cannot also be done during 8 weeks? This makes the lack of warning accusation look pretty dumb. The members of the UK parliament could have just read the newspapers and forget about China's regime and the WHO.

Finally, Italy was already being transparent on their big troubles when the UK PM was still telling business as usual in his speeches. Let's assume China lied, what about Italy's warning? The accusation still looks dumb.
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Old 07.04.2020, 20:24
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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#NoSpaceForRacists

For people wanting facts, not your silly anti-china propaganda..
The fact is China handled the situation appallingly and the world is now paying the price. Hopefully there will be repercussions.
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  #386  
Old 07.04.2020, 20:33
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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The fact is China handled the situation appallingly and the world is now paying the price. Hopefully there will be repercussions.
Repercussions will only teach them to shut up completely next time while hoping it will blow over.

Despite all that happened they have been more helpful and sharing info than on previous viruses like Sars and Mers.

And "the world" made a truckload of mistakes itself, most countries waited for the numbers to go up to a level where restrictions became demanded, instead of this whole "flatten the curve" we should have done an "avoid the curve" but in January almost everybody thought I was insane in telling that all planes should stop going there and that wide monitoring among the own population must occur.
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Old 07.04.2020, 23:42
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Despite all that happened they have been more helpful and sharing info than on previous viruses like Sars and Mers.
MERS was from Saudi Arabia.. Swine flu which was (timeline) between SARS and MERS and much more deadly than anything else, from Mexico/USA (which they completely failed to contain, and now is part of the yearly flu wave, killing some extra 100k+ each season..)

Just wanted to add. Otherwise, your posting was pretty much on point.
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  #388  
Old 08.04.2020, 01:18
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

Searching this thread for "Trump" yields 39 results, but searching for "Macron" yields none, while it was the Macrons who went to see a theatre piece in order to "inspire confidence in the French people" on March 7th.
How about Spanish authorities who were still allowing foot ball games and hundred thousand strong manifestation in Madrid, or Switzerland celebrating Swiss Music Awards with the presenter saying tongue-in-cheek that they reduced the audience to 1k to comply with regulation and not closing the schools, events and restaurants only until it was too late?
It all was happening with Italy already hugely suffering.
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  #389  
Old 08.04.2020, 02:19
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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That "UK parliament" site is clearly a hoax.
The UK Government's website gov.uk links to parliament.uk saying it's the Parliament's, which in turn links to committee.parliament.uk. The Committee's IP differs but that's easy to achieve by the domain holder, AFAIR it just takes an individual DNS record for the subdomain.

Yougov ranks it as the 120th most popular domain in the UK, pretty high if it were fake.

Just saying.
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Old 08.04.2020, 03:40
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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The fact is China handled the situation appallingly and the world is now paying the price. Hopefully there will be repercussions.
In what way? How can you combat what you don't know exists let alone how it spreads?

What did China do wrong (break any kind of rules or best practices they knew they were breaking) that had a meaningful effect?

Sure, the virus could have been kept in check with an earlier lockdown. But where in the world is this place where such a lockdown would have been accepted? Definitely neither in the UK nor the US. Fock, the UK and the USA even ignored the facts when they bit them in the ass and the dead arrived in truckloads!
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  #391  
Old 08.04.2020, 08:18
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Starting early January (ie, when the National gouvernment actually started to be involved), China had started to fully disclose all informations it had regarding the virus to the WHO (and thus, all Nations in the world - that includes the UK..) and shared all updates to them.
"Fully disclose", I'm not sure you can be taken seriously. China have consistently lied about their Coronavirus numbers, and are STILL lying.

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Can China's figures be trusted?

On Tuesday, China claimed a new milestone - reporting zero deaths from the coronavirus for the first time since January.

But not everyone is fully convinced. First, there's the issue of China having a bad reputation when it comes to official numbers. Its GDP numbers, or example, are seen more as a guide than fact.

And then there's the issue of what exactly was being defined as a confirmed virus case.

From January through to early March, seven different versions of the definition for Covid-19 were issued by the National Health Commission.

One professor told the BBC's Robin Brant that initial testing focused very specifically on severe pneumonia cases associated with the wet market in Wuhan. He now estimates there would be around 232,000 confirmed cases if the latter definitions were used from the beginning.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ost_type=share

Coronavirus: Why China's claims of success raise eyebrows

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52194356
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  #392  
Old 08.04.2020, 08:37
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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In what way? How can you combat what you don't know exists let alone how it spreads?

What did China do wrong (break any kind of rules or best practices they knew they were breaking) that had a meaningful effect?

Sure, the virus could have been kept in check with an earlier lockdown. But where in the world is this place where such a lockdown would have been accepted?!
CZ, Austria..all the countries that now flattened the curve enough to think about reopening some stuff next week. Early warning and fast corresponding measures were exactly what was needed to prevent rapid spread and mass infection and deaths.
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Old 08.04.2020, 09:07
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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In what way? How can you combat what you don't know exists let alone how it spreads?

What did China do wrong (break any kind of rules or best practices they knew they were breaking) that had a meaningful effect?

Sure, the virus could have been kept in check with an earlier lockdown. But where in the world is this place where such a lockdown would have been accepted? Definitely neither in the UK nor the US. Fock, the UK and the USA even ignored the facts when they bit them in the ass and the dead arrived in truckloads!
It's not just about an earlier lockdown, it's about China basically hiding knowledge of the virus for one or possibly two months before they decided the world was ready (ie: it could no longer be avoided) to know. Even then they underreported the scope and impact to the point where the WHO naively took them at face value and didn't treat it seriously enough.

China officials even started (futilely, it seems) to circulate a rumour that the US soldiers brought the virus to China to try and deflect criticism from their own people. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...histleblowers/
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  #394  
Old 08.04.2020, 09:32
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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It's not just about an earlier lockdown, it's about China basically hiding knowledge of the virus for one or possibly two months before they decided the world was ready (ie: it could no longer be avoided) to know. Even then they underreported the scope and impact to the point where the WHO naively took them at face value and didn't treat it seriously enough.
Please provide us with a timeline where they "hide knowledge" for "one or possibly two months". Because the timeline I'm aware is that they pretty much straight alarmed WHO/went public with it once it became clear it was a serious threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...o_January_2020

Unless you REALLY think they knew everything from 17th November onwards..

According to Wiki (and other sources I've read) they started getting first cases which - without hindsight - showed to be a wider problem (not just single cases) on the 18th December. On the 20th December they published reports, sent the samples to a proper screening, and the CCDC was alarmed about it. Which published about it a single day later.

But you can read upon it yourself, or get your own sources about it..

For me, to sound the alarm bell locally/nationally, when they encountered the new virus, immediately took action, and alarmed the world about it (after having done some preliminary checks on the virus) pretty much sounds reasonable once it became clear this isn't some non-transmissable virus.

At the time of alarming the WHO, the knowledge clearly was that the virus is only limited human-to-human transfereable. As we know NOW, the virus is extremely good at hiding, showing only symptoms once it's "too late", and was fully spreadable in the meantime. With plenty of people now showing symptoms at all. Only some weeks later the knowledge about the high R0 value became known.

Very different from SARS.

So.. bring forth your arguments what you think should have been done differently. And please don't talk about the situation back then with today's knowledge when assessing so.
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  #395  
Old 08.04.2020, 10:16
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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. . .
#ChinaLiedAndPeopleDied
. . .

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The fact is China handled the situation appallingly and the world is now paying the price. Hopefully there will be repercussions.

I find this focus on blame irritating, especially its incessant nature here, but see it simply as the obsessive parroting of the politics of a particular colour. Politicians have their careers to think about, have a very short time horizon, stopping at the next election cycle and don't want to be bothered with actually solving problems. But why it is imagined they need the support of this forum is a mystery to me.

So when a pandemic strikes, what is the obvious thing to do ? This:

Play it down and hope it all blows over. If that fails:
1. Find some one to blame for the negative aspects and speak loudly about these.
2. Pirate the credit for any positive aspects and speak loudly about these.

Useless, but easy to do.

It leads (or could lead) to these absurdities :

We have herd immunity. We have drugs for other big diseases which are very promising. It's like seasonal flu. Our great constitution will protect us. We all have to dies of something.

It was the Chinese, they eat horrid creepy crawlies, they are yellow skinned, they lie, they suppress journalists telling the truth, they overreact with draconian shutdowns, their elite ruling class are commies, they hate our freedoms, they experiment with dangerous pathogens. They never told us this was going to happen.

The previous administration left us in this situation. They failed to provide the resources which would have stopped this. They allowed our manufacturing base to crumble so we can't even make ventilators or drugs. We are stopping the export of medical items which we need for this emergency. We thoroughly condemn those who prevent us importing much needed medical supplies.

The WHO (world health organisation) are to blame. They down played the risks. They exaggerated the risks at an early stage as a cynical back covering exercise. Where were they when we needed them? What did they do with all this money we gave them? If we had better information, we'd of course reacted sooner.

The success that the Chinese have had in combating this down to them falsifying the statistics and copying our great model for dealing with this crisis and stealing our idea of herd immunity.
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  #396  
Old 08.04.2020, 10:54
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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So.. bring forth your arguments what you think should have been done differently. And please don't talk about the situation back then with today's knowledge when assessing so.
Perhaps they shouldn't have suppressed their own doctors and journalists from speaking the truth... I feel like we keep coming back to this point.
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  #397  
Old 08.04.2020, 11:01
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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"Fully disclose", I'm not sure you can be taken seriously. China have consistently lied about their Coronavirus numbers, and are STILL lying.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ost_type=share

Coronavirus: Why China's claims of success raise eyebrows

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52194356
Fine, let's assume China lies.

It's interesting to learn that national decisions rely on the WHO and the presidents and prime ministers have no other information acquisition tools.

What are the intelligence services of all other countries around the world doing to find the real numbers? Or, is everyone sitting on their hands while blaming the WHO? Suddenly, all intelligence agencies lost operational capabilities to find out if thousands of people are dying daily?

Unless someone comes up with "real numbers", the whole thing looks like a conspiracy theory.
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Old 08.04.2020, 11:05
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Perhaps they shouldn't have suppressed their own doctors and journalists from speaking the truth... I feel like we keep coming back to this point.
Exactly, it's not that difficult to understand

It's very simple, most countries have not dealt with the virus particularly well. There are a few exceptions, Germany in Europe for example, but even their effort is poor compared to Asian countries like South Korea and Singapore.

The issue is China lied, they completely suppressed the truth early on, then when they did admit to the problem, they massively fiddled the numbers. The WHO believed everything that China told them, and in part thanks to the doctored numbers every other country wasn't sufficiently prepared for what was about to hit.
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Old 08.04.2020, 11:13
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

I think it's useless.

The China-haters here will hate China no matter what.

It's like those Trump fans. No matter how much he lies to them, no matter how much corruption booms under his regime, no matter how many billions his thug friends steal from the public, they'll cheer at him. Proudly wearing their MAGA hats (Made in China ) and Hailing every lie he throws at them.

I'll refrain from answering to their silly conspiracy theories and hate. Everyone who travelled to China (and/or seen more countries in the world, or actually reads a more widely variety of news rather than Fox..) will know that their very one-sided worldview lacks of many understandings and is straight-on flawed. But as said, they want to hate China, and won't change their mind, no matter how many facts thrown at them. Haters gonna hate..
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Old 08.04.2020, 11:17
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

So, people who say that China deserved better of their government are now labelled as hating China? Where is the logic in that? It is absurdly starting to resemble Mao campaign
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