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  #401  
Old 08.04.2020, 11:21
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Perhaps they shouldn't have suppressed their own doctors and journalists from speaking the truth... I feel like we keep coming back to this point.
We keep coming back to the same point because a small selection of users here apparently feel the need to repeat it endlessly, despite it already having been dealt with ad nauseam.
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  #402  
Old 08.04.2020, 11:22
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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So, people who say that China deserved better of their government are now labelled as hating China? Where is the logic in that? It is absurdly starting to resemble Mao campaign
You keep claiming here (and in the other Corona thread) that China doesn't tell the truth. Yet you can't back up your nonsense with any source. I wonder..

And you haven't replied to me when I clearly owned your "China hide it for 1 or 2 months" nonsense with facts. I wonder again..

Maybe because your bias against China is only based on hate (and some conspiracy websites), and not facts? At least from reading your postings and those of your buddy Tony, it looks very much like.

But as said, I won't reply to your & Tony's comment anymore.

If you want to hate China fact-free, go ahead, show everyone.
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Old 08.04.2020, 11:27
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Perhaps they shouldn't have suppressed their own doctors and journalists from speaking the truth... I feel like we keep coming back to this point.
Yes we keep coming back to the point were that west was still doing between zip and nada up to nothing and twiddling thumbs, or to say it in words of the Swiss Federal Council "we are looking closely at the situation" when shit hit the fan and all was out of control in Italy.

How much more months of twiddling thumbs and looking closing at the situation do you think the west needed to be better prepared?

The west was arrogant and oblivious. We got lucky that A(H1N1) was a dud, we were fortunate that original SARS and MERS was a non issue for us, and we naively hoped the same will be true for this shit as well. And even if it hits us we have the best of the best preparedness and infrastructure to deal with it. (Narrator: We didn't). We thought we can manage it without lock-downs and curfew as the west is so much better than China.
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Old 08.04.2020, 11:35
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Yes we keep coming back to the point were that west was still doing between zip and nada up to nothing and twiddling thumbs, or to say it in words of the Swiss Federal Council "we are looking closely at the situation" when shit hit the fan and all was out of control in Italy.

How much more months of twiddling thumbs and looking closing at the situation do you think the west needed to be better prepared?

The west was arrogant and oblivious. We got lucky that A(H1N1) was a dud, we were fortunate that original SARS and MERS was a non issue for us, and we naively hoped the same will be true for this shit as well. And even if it hits us we have the best of the best preparedness and infrastructure to deal with it. (Narrator: We didn't). We thought we can manage it without lock-downs and curfew as the west is so much better than China.
Blame and shame the West all you like, they deserve it. That doesn't change what China did though.
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Old 08.04.2020, 11:39
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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We keep coming back to the same point because a small selection of users here apparently feel the need to repeat it endlessly, despite it already having been dealt with ad nauseam.
I realise you're willing to brush it aside as an innocent mistake, but I think many people see doctors being suppressed from telling the truth as a bit of a dealbreaker.
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  #406  
Old 08.04.2020, 11:48
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

In Wuhan they were still trying to break the world record for the largest banquet on 18 January. The local government had no idea at the time how serious the issue was and were more concerned with downplaying the issue and avoid damaging the economy (sound familiar?). Worse still, through mismanagement they exported the contagion to the rest of China (and the world).

By the end of January, they were trying to build a 2 new hospitals in 10 days. At this time, the whole world knew that it was serious.

The thing is, the west largely ignored it, maybe assuming it was mainly an Asia issue as with SARS.

When cases spiked in Italy, the west should have taken notice, but again were slow to act. Maybe it is just human nature to assume all is fine and it is a problem elsewhere as the same thing played out in multiple countries. The exceptions were mainly the Asian countries who had memories of SARS.
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  #407  
Old 08.04.2020, 11:51
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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If you want to hate China..
You should not want that from people.
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  #408  
Old 08.04.2020, 12:15
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Please provide us with a timeline where they "hide knowledge" for "one or possibly two months". Because the timeline I'm aware is that they pretty much straight alarmed WHO/went public with it once it became clear it was a serious threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...o_January_2020

Unless you REALLY think they knew everything from 17th November onwards..

According to Wiki (and other sources I've read) they started getting first cases which - without hindsight - showed to be a wider problem (not just single cases) on the 18th December. On the 20th December they published reports, sent the samples to a proper screening, and the CCDC was alarmed about it. Which published about it a single day later.

But you can read upon it yourself, or get your own sources about it..

For me, to sound the alarm bell locally/nationally, when they encountered the new virus, immediately took action, and alarmed the world about it (after having done some preliminary checks on the virus) pretty much sounds reasonable once it became clear this isn't some non-transmissable virus.

At the time of alarming the WHO, the knowledge clearly was that the virus is only limited human-to-human transfereable. As we know NOW, the virus is extremely good at hiding, showing only symptoms once it's "too late", and was fully spreadable in the meantime. With plenty of people now showing symptoms at all. Only some weeks later the knowledge about the high R0 value became known.

Very different from SARS.

So.. bring forth your arguments what you think should have been done differently. And please don't talk about the situation back then with today's knowledge when assessing so.
This article summarizes it well: https://www.vox.com/2020/2/10/211248...h-organization

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How China bungled its response to the new coronavirus outbreak

Before we get into the international response, here’s a quick recap of how China delayed reporting the crisis and employed cover-up measures to play down the threat of 2019-nCoV, as the virus is known.

On December 31, when China first announced the outbreak of a mysterious pneumonia, officials there emphasized a few things. Most of the patients had been to a food market in Wuhan, the city that’s still the epicenter of the outbreak. They said there was “no clear evidence” of human-to-human transmission, meaning the virus wasn’t yet spreading from one person to another but instead, they suggested, from an animal to humans. And they said the earliest case had shown symptoms only recently — on December 12.

Yet, for weeks now, reports in both the scientific literature and local and international news have contradicted what Chinese authorities were telling the world. These reports show the outbreak started weeks or months sooner than China let on, and the virus was already spreading among people — and beyond the food market in Wuhan — in early January. Authorities also censored information and silenced the whistleblowers who tried to sound the alarm.
But please, as a random person on the interwebs please feel free to keep contradicting tangible and documented sources with your rantings.
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  #409  
Old 08.04.2020, 12:43
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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This article summarizes it well: https://www.vox.com/2020/2/10/211248...h-organization

But please, as a random person on the interwebs please feel free to keep contradicting tangible and documented sources with your rantings.
We all have any sources on hand, should we want them. It seems that some would prefer to win the internet argument than admit that there were measures to be taken earlier, that would have saved thousands of lives. Italy, UK, France and US I think should have all implemented the strict confinement cca 2-3wks earlier to save thousands. I know that hindsight is always perfect. But we only had an opportunity to learn pretty much only from warped data, a source that was far from credible (PRC). It is not only upsetting for us, we saw it coming...but imho surely exposes the gravity of injustice and loss that Chinese people have to put up with.
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  #410  
Old 08.04.2020, 13:24
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Blame and shame the West all you like, they deserve it. That doesn't change what China did though.
You still fail to explain how what China did or not did had changed the reaction of the authoroties and outcome in the West in any considerable way.
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  #411  
Old 08.04.2020, 13:32
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

An article from the 10th February, which either confirms what I said before (the parts still true), or has it's claims since proven wrong, is the best you could come up with? Nice work!

Besides that, it seems just to be the average "China quarantined 50 millions, they must be bad" nonsense. Right after claiming that they didn't took measurements early enough.. but I guess China should lock down a full province each time someone coughts a little, when nothing yet is known.. glad the US did everything so perfect with the Swine flu (Irony, for those not getting it)

Surprisingly, those kind of people didn't said so when the western world did the same..

China either did too little, or too much. For you kind of people, they just can't get it right.

China's reaction certainly wasn't perfect. But it's interesting to see that some people seem to prefer to blame them for literally everything going wrong in their very own house/garden...
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Old 08.04.2020, 13:54
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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You still fail to explain how what China did or not did had changed the reaction of the authoroties and outcome in the West in any considerable way.
I've already explained that the West were misled the risk due to the numbers that were being submitted by China and reported by the WHO. Whether the outcome would have been different we'll never know. This article explains it in more detail (queue the cry of "Propaganda!" from YuropFlyer).


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Don't be fooled by China's coronavirus propaganda

As the world wages war on coronavirus, China is in full propaganda mode. Its foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian has claimed the US military might have brought Covid-19 to Wuhan, a lie parroted by several embassy Twitter accounts. It has also sent doctors and medical supplies to Europe and to the United States. Never one to let a good crisis go to waste, China's leader Xi Jinping has reportedly suggested that the aid Beijing has provided could form the basis of a 'health silk road' connecting Europe to China.

But make no mistake: China’s activities are designed to distract from its own culpability. Through its actions and its words, Beijing is seeking to convince the world that Covid-19 did not originate in China, and that the world should be grateful for all that China is doing to halt the spread of the virus. These narratives had some initial success, although this is largely because of what the West did wrong, rather than because of anything China did right.

Nowhere is this clearer than in Italy. In early March, Beijing sent masks, respirators and specialist doctors to Italy. This came at a time when the European Union and its members were largely ignoring Rome’s calls for help. China’s efforts earnt it predictable plaudits from the Italian government, which includes populists with a predictably pro-authoritarian streak. Following weeks of inaction, the EU Commission has now begun to counter the Chinese Communist party’s propaganda by stressing, for example, that France and Germany combined have donated more masks to Italy than China.

There are few signs – at the moment – that anybody within mainstream UK politics has fallen for what David Patrikarakos has called China’s 'masked diplomacy'. But anyone who doubts the impact that the CCP’s propaganda has had on the UK should read the publicly-available minutes from the meetings of the New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (Nervtag).

Nervtag acts as an advisory group to the chief medical officer. It was first convened at the request of the Department of Health and Social Care on 13 January 2020. The Department relied on Nervtag to make changes to public health advice and equipment guidance for the NHS. Nervtag was thus central to the UK’s response to Covid-19 – and reading the minutes from its meetings shows, in excruciating detail, how the UK’s initial response was hampered by Beijing’s lies.

When Nervtag met for the first time, the World Health Organisation (WHO) was reporting, based on data supplied to it by China, that there were no cases of medics contracting Covid-19; there had been only 41 cases of Covid-19 between 8 December 2019 and 2 January 2020; and, there had been no additional cases since 3 January 2020. All of this was untrue, and the CCP had already begun to persecute anyone who dared to speak the truth. But Nervtag concluded 'based on current available information' that the risk to the UK population was 'Very Low'.

Nervtag next met on 21 January. At the time, the WHO said – again, based on Chinese data – it was not possible to determine for certain if a feature of Covid-19 was 'self-sustaining human transmission' (i.e., human-to-human transmission). This was the case and – by this stage – surely well known in China. As early as the second week of December 2019, doctors in Wuhan had reported cases that indicated human-to-human transmission. But Nervtag did not know this, and only moved its threat-assessment to 'Low'.

On 28 January, when Nervtag next met, the situation was bleaker. The Group recognised – following a WHO Emergency Committee meeting – that human-to-human transmission was occurring. Even at this stage, however, Nervtag commented that 'a large amount of data' supplied by China was inadequate or incomplete. Two days later, the WHO declared an international emergency. And on 31 January, the first two cases of Covid-19 were confirmed in the UK.

It is, of course, unclear whether the UK would have acted differently had it had access to all the available information. Perhaps 'herd immunity' would not have been trialled, but perhaps it would. We may have gone into isolation sooner, began social distancing faster, or had additional measures and precautions imposed upon us. But it is clear that China’s obfuscations, which were repeated by the WHO, lulled the UK – and other countries – into a false position.


China’s behaviour is taken from the authoritarian playbook. The CCP sought to conceal bad news from its own citizens, and then to conceal bad news from the outside world. In doing so, as a recent Henry Jackson Society report makes clear, Beijing breached its obligations under the International Health Regulations to share – in full – data relating to emerging diseases. This undoubtedly led to deaths outside of China’s borders, perhaps within the UK’s.

Like other authoritarian states, China abides by its international obligations when it believes it is in its interests to do so, and ignores them when it is not. When all of this is over, China will have questions to answer – but we should not expect straight answers.

Dr Andrew Foxall is Director of Research at the Henry Jackson Society, the international affairs think tank.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...rus-propaganda
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  #413  
Old 08.04.2020, 13:57
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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You still fail to explain how what China did or not did had changed the reaction of the authoroties and outcome in the West in any considerable way.
Perhaps the authorities in the West would have reacted differently had China been open and honest. Maybe. But we will never know, because China wasn't open and honest, rather they have consistently lied and covered up the truth.
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  #414  
Old 08.04.2020, 14:00
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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An article from the 10th February, which either confirms what I said before (the parts still true), or has it's claims since proven wrong, is the best you could come up with? Nice work!

Besides that, it seems just to be the average "China quarantined 50 millions, they must be bad" nonsense. Right after claiming that they didn't took measurements early enough.. but I guess China should lock down a full province each time someone coughts a little, when nothing yet is known.. glad the US did everything so perfect with the Swine flu (Irony, for those not getting it)

Surprisingly, those kind of people didn't said so when the western world did the same..

China either did too little, or too much. For you kind of people, they just can't get it right.

China's reaction certainly wasn't perfect. But it's interesting to see that some people seem to prefer to blame them for literally everything going wrong in their very own house/garden...
I'm very sorry that people around the world are justifiably criticizing one of your favourite countries, a country that has a terrible and long-standing recorded reputation for rejecting openness, transparency, human rights and democracy, makes you feel so sad.

Not.
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Old 08.04.2020, 14:12
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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I'm very sorry that people around the world are justifiably criticizing one of your favourite countries, a country that has a terrible and long-standing recorded reputation for rejecting openness, transparency, human rights and democracy, makes you feel so sad.

Not.
The USA isn't one of my favorite countries
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Old 08.04.2020, 14:14
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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I think it's useless.

The China-haters here will hate China no matter what.

It's like those Trump fans. No matter how much he lies to them, no matter how much corruption booms under his regime, no matter how many billions his thug friends steal from the public, they'll cheer at him. Proudly wearing their MAGA hats (Made in China ) and Hailing every lie he throws at them.
I think it's not about China as such but about shifting blame. Trump denied for a long time that there's a problem in the first place. Now that this is no longer tenable someone else must take the blame, and China is simply the easiest waste basket.

As he said in the Rose Garden on March 13:
" I don’t take responsibility at all."
Not only for the lack of testing, as was the question, but for the whole disaster in general. The fact that he disbanded the positions in the National Security Council whose job it was to deal with exactly this kind of situation by coordinating the agencies and make the highest levels aware in order to get sufficient resources has, in Trump's world and contrary to even common sense, nothing to do with the abysmal handling of the epidemic that is kiling tens of thousands.

China is the new USSR.
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Old 08.04.2020, 14:24
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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But we only had an opportunity to learn pretty much only from warped data, a source that was far from credible (PRC). It is not only upsetting for us, we saw it coming...but imho surely exposes the gravity of injustice and loss that Chinese people have to put up with.
Nonsense.

South Korea had the same data yet keeps demonstrating a successful way to deal with the coronavirus.
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Old 08.04.2020, 16:04
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Perhaps the authorities in the West would have reacted differently had China been open and honest.
The west did not react even when all was pretty clear. Even the "known" released, so called fake data from China gives a more than good enough picture about the seriousness and the risk of the virus.

China locked down Hubei with allegedly 600 cases but ended up with an alleged 3.2k dead. Even with a complete and tight lock down the published numbers show that it was a catastrophe of an epic scale which could be barely stopped. Those are absolutely horrific numbers.

Italy did a partial lock down with 9.6k cases, if Italy ends up with less than 50k dead they did a better job than China. Relatively speaking.

This no issues of incomplete or withheld information. There is nothing of what we should have known more. All the signs were there, blinking, and in large letters. But the west was blind and arrogant and thought they were just like Japan, Taiwan, or Singapore. They would have hardly acted in a different way if they had known more or earlier. We know because they in fact wes simply didn't. After we are not like China, came we are not like Italy, and then we heard from the US we are not like Europe.

Once again: The data known from China clearly showed what would happen if you do not contain it and prevent community spreading with all means possible. Even when the same thing started to happen here and all data was fully available, there was still no motion to contain it and prevent community spreading.

Calling for more and earlier data, even when all the incomplete and fake data available shows how catastrophic the situation is, is just pure self denial and deflection of its own sheer incompetence and harmful overconfidence.

The really worst part of it is such people like you hardly learn from their mistakes as they are incapable do see their own fault nor that they did a mistake at all.
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Old 08.04.2020, 16:23
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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The west did not react even when all was pretty clear. Even the "known" released, so called fake data from China gives a more than good enough picture about the seriousness and the risk of the virus.
This. I can't and won't vouch for China or cut myself an arm defending it, but I agree on this one. The rest of the world preferred to postpone adequate measures because....because economy, allegedly.

In Italy, Germany, Spain - they were still playing football matches with public if I recall correctly. Everything came too late, after some "biological bombs" were already detonated.
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Old 08.04.2020, 17:23
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Calling for more and earlier data, even when all the incomplete and fake data available shows how catastrophic the situation is, is just pure self denial and deflection of its own sheer incompetence and harmful overconfidence.
Sir, your display of utilitarianism is admirable.

Late, incomplete or fake data arrived from China to the general public around the world on Jan 23 along the Wuhan lockdown. Those stories were worrisome enough to be a warning.

The first lockdown in Italy was on Feb 21 comprising a few towns. Then on March 8 the lockdown extended to the regions of the north of Italy. Italy was transparent. While Italy was sinking, the mainstream discourse in Europe and America was still minimizing the situation.

China made a far from perfect but earlier warning in January. The cruise ships were another warning in early February. Italy made a real warning in February and we were still on the phase of "ohhh, the economy".

If the naive needed an explicit warning delivered by a registered letter from the WHO with all the data and insight we have today to react, well...they're naive and as a SwissintheUS wrote, learned nothing.
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