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Old 08.04.2020, 18:15
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Nonsense.

South Korea had the same data yet keeps demonstrating a successful way to deal with the coronavirus.
Of course they did.

They had their drill nailed since 2008-9. It is not like Europe had even considered it. By saying that China screwed up in Dec I am not denying at all that Europe could have done better, they should have. When I type China and the beginning of the crisis, I do not expect people to read Europe and March.
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  #422  
Old 08.04.2020, 18:16
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

A quite sobering story of the decision process to lockdown a country. The Reuters article tells the story of the scientific advisors of the UK government.

Edmunds recalled that “from about mid January onwards, it was absolutely obvious that this was serious, very serious.” Graham Medley, a professor of infectious diseases modelling at the London School and chairman of SPI-M, agreed. He said that the committee was “clear that this was going to be big from the first meeting.” At the end of January, his committee moved into “wartime” mode, he said, reporting directly into SAGE.

Dr Jon Read, a senior lecturer in biostatistics at the University of Lancaster, also a member of SPI-M, said by the end of January it was apparent the virus had “pandemic potential” and that death rates for the elderly were brutal. “From my perspective within the sort of modelling community, everybody’s aware of this, and we’re saying that this is probably going to be pretty bad,” he said.


But the scientists did not articulate their fears forcefully to the government, minutes of committee meetings reveal.


The scientists knew at a very early time, but several things prevented them from pushing the metaphorical alarm button. It's really hard to establish fault when everyone acted diligently but scientists are fallible humans too. I'm sure they will learn and prepare better protocols for the future as the scientists in countries affected by SARS on 2002 did. That's the ongoing UK story on the virus. Every country that reacted late should do the same exercise.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN21P1VF

PS. It's quite ironic that Chinese doctors wrote articles in English for the Lancet (British Medical Journal) warning about the virus outbreak https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...185-9/fulltext

PS 2, not sure if blaming "China" is racist, but dumb surely is.
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  #423  
Old 08.04.2020, 18:21
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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The west did not react even when all was pretty clear. Even the "known" released, so called fake data from China gives a more than good enough picture about the seriousness and the risk of the virus.

China locked down Hubei with allegedly 600 cases but ended up with an alleged 3.2k dead. Even with a complete and tight lock down the published numbers show that it was a catastrophe of an epic scale which could be barely stopped. Those are absolutely horrific numbers.

Italy did a partial lock down with 9.6k cases, if Italy ends up with less than 50k dead they did a better job than China. Relatively speaking.

This no issues of incomplete or withheld information. There is nothing of what we should have known more. All the signs were there, blinking, and in large letters. But the west was blind and arrogant and thought they were just like Japan, Taiwan, or Singapore. They would have hardly acted in a different way if they had known more or earlier. We know because they in fact wes simply didn't. After we are not like China, came we are not like Italy, and then we heard from the US we are not like Europe.

Once again: The data known from China clearly showed what would happen if you do not contain it and prevent community spreading with all means possible. Even when the same thing started to happen here and all data was fully available, there was still no motion to contain it and prevent community spreading.

Calling for more and earlier data, even when all the incomplete and fake data available shows how catastrophic the situation is, is just pure self denial and deflection of its own sheer incompetence and harmful overconfidence.

The really worst part of it is such people like you hardly learn from their mistakes as they are incapable do see their own fault nor that they did a mistake at all.
Yes, the response from the West was slow and lax but I don't think I've read anyone defending those actions.

Maybe the response would have even been the same even if China hadn't lied and covered up about the extent of the virus. That doesn't make China's deceit any less worse though.
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  #424  
Old 08.04.2020, 18:24
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Yes, the response from the West was slow and lax but I don't think I've read anyone defending those actions.

Maybe the response would have been the same even if China hadn't lied and covered up about the extent of the virus. That doesn't make China's deceit any less worse though.
On the other hand, the deceit is no surprise to us. And then you think about the people who have to live through it there and the treatment the whistleblowers got and will get, if they survived.
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  #425  
Old 08.04.2020, 22:42
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Of course they did.

They had their drill nailed since 2008-9. It is not like Europe had even considered it. By saying that China screwed up in Dec I am not denying at all that Europe could have done better, they should have. When I type China and the beginning of the crisis, I do not expect people to read Europe and March.
Is that so. Your "now" below means January, and neither CZ nor Austria are part of Europe.

This is utterly pointless.
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CZ, Austria..all the countries that now flattened the curve enough to think about reopening some stuff next week. Early warning and fast corresponding measures were exactly what was needed to prevent rapid spread and mass infection and deaths.
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  #426  
Old 09.04.2020, 08:28
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

Bravo Japan! More of this! Lie to the world in order to save face and we'll find other places from where to buy our tat!

Japan to pay firms to leave China, relocate production elsewhere as part of coronavirus stimulus

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-...elsewhere-part
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  #427  
Old 09.04.2020, 09:25
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

If "lie" would mean losing foreign investment, your favorite Trumpistan would have absolutely nothing left..
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Old 09.04.2020, 16:29
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Bravo Japan! More of this! Lie to the world in order to save face and we'll find other places from where to buy our tat!

Japan to pay firms to leave China, relocate production elsewhere as part of coronavirus stimulus

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-...elsewhere-part
Maybe if your hatred of China would extend to refusing to use a keyboard which has components sourced from China, we would all get a rest here from this continuous anti-China diatribe.
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  #429  
Old 10.04.2020, 09:16
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Bravo Japan! More of this! Lie to the world in order to save face and we'll find other places from where to buy our tat!

Japan to pay firms to leave China, relocate production elsewhere as part of coronavirus stimulus

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-...elsewhere-part
They only want to move production in some areas... China is still a huge market for Japanese car makers and Japan have also spent a long time trying to repair diplomatic relations with China after their empire devastated it and massacred so many Chinese less than 100 years ago. They are not going to throw away relations just like that.

During WW2, Japan made China (and Russia) look like angels. They were utterly heinous and at the time one of the most evil nations the world had ever seen. The atrocities they committed within only a short time frame make the blood run cold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane..._crimes#Crimes

So while that is (modern) history and does not excuse China for any transgressions during this pandemic, lets put things in perspective when talking about Japan and China.
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Old 10.04.2020, 09:34
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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I think it's useless.
Haters gonna hate..
And the dying people gonna die.
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Old 10.04.2020, 09:37
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Yes, the response from the West was slow and lax but I don't think I've read anyone defending those actions.
Oh just jump to the coronavirus megathread and you'll see how many are defending gorgeous swiss actions.

Not to mention those praising words on, for example, Tagesanzeiger
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  #432  
Old 10.04.2020, 09:43
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Oh just jump to the coronavirus megathread and you'll see how many are defending gorgeous swiss actions.

Not to mention those praising words on, for example, Tagesanzeiger
Compared to most countries, Switzerland appears to have got off lightly. I think other than the early stage of the pandemic where they were slow to react and close borders, their response has so far been reasonable.

Of course it helps we have lower population and better living standards and healthcare, not to mention a more obedient population in general.
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  #433  
Old 10.04.2020, 13:22
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Compared to most countries, Switzerland appears to have got off lightly. I think other than the early stage of the pandemic where they were slow to react and close borders, their response has so far been reasonable.

Of course it helps we have lower population and better living standards and healthcare, not to mention a more obedient population in general.
What are you, applying for citizenship or something? Don't you worry, the Gemeinde ain't reading your posts.
My view is quite the opposite. The population has a very lax view on the entire crisis, that is why we have one of the highest infection rates per capita in addition to having a smallish population size with an overseeable geographical region and borders. The advance healthcare is an absolute myth. A long time ago, I was very adamant and vocal on how the use of gloves among nurses and doctors is widely being ignored. The advanced health lies in the fact, that if you have an issue, that you'll be able to quickly get to a specialist, without much delay. The medical treatment for corona cases doesn't necessarily require the assistance of specialists and therefore is no different than in other countries. If you want to see a disciplined population along with highly qualified medical staff, you need to look at Eastern Europe, they got their stuff together.
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  #434  
Old 10.04.2020, 13:25
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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If you want to see a disciplined population along with highly qualified medical staff, you knoy need to look at Eastern Europe, they got their stuff together.
Or China.
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  #435  
Old 10.04.2020, 13:42
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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What are you, applying for citizenship or something? Don't you worry, the Gemeinde ain't reading your posts.
My view is quite the opposite. The population has a very lax view on the entire crisis, that is why we have one of the highest infection rates per capita in addition to having a smallish population size with an overseeable geographical region and borders. The advance healthcare is an absolute myth. A long time ago, I was very adamant and vocal on how the use of gloves among nurses and doctors is widely being ignored. The advanced health lies in the fact, that if you have an issue, that you'll be able to quickly get to a specialist, without much delay. The medical treatment for corona cases doesn't necessarily require the assistance of specialists and therefore is no different than in other countries. If you want to see a disciplined population along with highly qualified medical staff, you need to look at Eastern Europe, they got their stuff together.
Look at the UK, look at the USA, look at Italy, Spain, etc etc.

If you are saying that the notion of Swiss higher quality of healthcare and more obedient / conscientious population is a "myth" vs many other Western countries then I would completely disagree.

Switzerland may not be the very best in the Western world, but I would say that it is certainly very good in both of those categories.

The Swiss government messed up its initial reaction, yup, but things have been otherwise pretty smooth and sensible imo.

Last edited by Chuff; 10.04.2020 at 13:53.
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  #436  
Old 10.04.2020, 13:54
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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What are you, applying for citizenship or something? Don't you worry, the Gemeinde ain't reading your posts.
My view is quite the opposite. The population has a very lax view on the entire crisis, that is why we have one of the highest infection rates per capita in addition to having a smallish population size with an overseeable geographical region and borders. The advance healthcare is an absolute myth. A long time ago, I was very adamant and vocal on how the use of gloves among nurses and doctors is widely being ignored. The advanced health lies in the fact, that if you have an issue, that you'll be able to quickly get to a specialist, without much delay. The medical treatment for corona cases doesn't necessarily require the assistance of specialists and therefore is no different than in other countries. If you want to see a disciplined population along with highly qualified medical staff, you need to look at Eastern Europe, they got their stuff together.
I agree. But I think the only difference is the delay before 1st patient and border closing. And then of course how people apply the restrictive measures. West not being used to crisis, there is an element of anxiety that seems with some to push them in denial and they don't act within the recomendations and restrictions. The streets of Paris were packed last weekend, the Czechs living in Paris are being interviewed for Czech news, the situ brings the expats down. One Czech lady living in Paris said that masks aren't worn and people don't know how to make them, people also go out not realizing they are asymptomatic vectors. ITV news reported that lots of people in the UK were arrested last few days/nights for partying, etc. I also think Western health systems got gradually severely underfunded, it shows now.

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Or China.
I totally think they got it under control now, just don't like how many good people died unaccompanied, waiting for help in some secluded areas and being left helpless in their isolated appartments or death hotels.And the fact that there is no more trust in their stats. The research they are investing into will be scrutinized and it will shrink the possible think tank.
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  #437  
Old 10.04.2020, 13:59
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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The Swiss government messed up its initial reaction, yup, but things have been otherwise pretty smooth and sensible imo.
I completely agree with this. Italy is so close, too, I think despite the innitial reaction Switzerland moved fast to avoid the Italian scenario. The probability is still quite high, though, hence the measures still being kept here. But civic responsibility is high both here and EEs, Austria, Germany too, I think. Government said, people did.
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  #438  
Old 10.04.2020, 14:02
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Look at the UK, look at the USA, look at Italy, Spain, etc etc.

If you are saying that the notion of Swiss higher quality of healthcare and more obedient / conscientious population is a "myth" vs many other Western countries then I would completely disagree.

Switzerland may not be the very best in the Western world, but I would say that it is certainly very good in both of those categories.

The Swiss government messed up its initial reaction, yup, but things have been otherwise pretty smooth and sensible imo.
Apples with apples my truculent friend. Those countries you've mentioned have cities with a population larger or close to that of entire Switzerland. And yes, they don't practice medicine with a bamboo rod and a vial of Mississippi snake oil. . .they do have very competent healthcare in those places. However, what I find completely appalling, is that Switzerland, being a hub for so many pharma companies has to beg Germany to release medical gear, something completely incomprehensible. My pharmacy is still out of masks and hand disinfectant. How is that even possible, if it weren't for the fact, that healthcare and its supply chain in this country are performing at a substandard level.
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  #439  
Old 10.04.2020, 14:06
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Apples with apples my truculent friend. Those countries you've mentioned have cities with a population larger or close to that of entire Switzerland. And yes, they don't practice medicine with a bamboo rod and a vial of Mississippi snake oil. . .they do have very competent healthcare in those places. However, what I find completely appalling, is that Switzerland, being a hub for so many pharma companies has to beg Germany to release medical gear, something completely incomprehensible. My pharmacy is still out of masks and hand disinfectant. How is that even possible, if it weren't for the fact, that healthcare and its supply chain in this country are performing at a substandard level.
Well, it is a lot of masks, shields, gels and gloves to go around if you have 3 pharmacies in every street. Because, Switzerland. No snake oil but lots of homeopathy.
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Old 10.04.2020, 14:20
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Re: Chinese tourist invasion

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Well, it is a lot of masks, shields, gels and gloves to go around if you have 3 pharmacies in every street. Because, Switzerland. No snake oil but lots of homeopathy.
I don't know MC, if I were the CEO of any Swiss pharma conglomerate, I would first hand make sure, that my employees and the country I'm associated with have all the gear and equipment it requires. But this mandates having backbone and integrity. Germany is looking after their own, hence the seizure of our products. Pharma should have gotten together and implemented a complete halt to all goods sold to Germany, I wonder how quickly they would have released our goods then. But I understand, how this is viewed as anti-business from the stockholders. We got Deepak Chopra running Novartis and yet, I haven't seen one itty bitty statement from him in the news. . .not even a "Hey, look we working on this" on Blick or Instagram, to show that pharma is somewhat involved in this mess.
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