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Old 16.02.2020, 12:44
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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He claims he didn't know what work was agreed with the landlord and just let them do what they wanted and now the landlord wants him to pay. Of course we don't know what the workman said to his wife.
He did know:
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We agreed with our landlord that he would pay for costing of the master bedroom window seals reparation
Let's see it from the positive side: the kids can sleep comfortably and they didn't ask in German if they should renovate the whole house
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  #22  
Old 16.02.2020, 12:49
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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He did know:


Let's see it from the positive side: the kids can sleep comfortably and they didn't ask in German if they should renovate the whole house
Or break it down.
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Old 16.02.2020, 12:55
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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And Switzerland has this all-covering-problem-solver-clause: <<Ignorance is no excuse in law.>>
Not true:- Ignorance of the law is an acceptable defence in a criminal case.

Throughout history, until amendment of the Swiss federal law in 1937, wherever error of law has been admitted as a general defense, it has been so admitted on a theory of intent. This was the doctrine underlying the law of the Bible and the Talmud, the Roman, Roman-German and canon law. Dolus malus, Zemama, bitser Wille, wicked mind and mens rea all convey the idea of intent directed to law violation or wrong doing, implying knowledge that what is being done is wrong. To have an evil intent, a man must know the "nature and quality of the act," and originally this probably included knowledge that the act was "wrong," for nature and morality were not separated." 7 Lack of such knowledge negatived intent with the result that the actor could not be punished for intentional (as opposed to negligent) crime, even though he purposefully brought about the illegal result.

According to the conventional psychological theory, guilt is either intent or negligence, depending upon whether the crime is one of intent or one of negligence. Intent requires consciousness of illegality; such consciousness is a natural part of intent. Indeed, some authors simply define intent as con- sciousness of wrongdoing." 8 It has even been contended that negligence re- quires possibility of knowledge of illegality." 9 In any event, in intentional crime, consciousness of illegality is essential to intent, and the latter consti- tutes guilt. Punishment of an act committed without such consciousness is punishment "for the consequences of the act" without guilt and thus is aviolation of the principle nulla poena sine culpa (no punishment without guilt) 120

Swiss law of 1853.--The doctrine of intent has been best represented in modern legislation by Article 11 of the Swiss Federal Criminal Law of 1853.121 In this article, intent was described as illegal intent. The Swiss Federal Tribunal held illegal to mean in consciousness of illegality, so that it was not necessary for the Tribunal to decide whether in the absence of that term such consciousness would have been required.12 2 However that may be, under Article 11, the Federal Tribunal1 23 as well as other courts 24 consistently held consciousness of illegality to be essential to intentional guilt. This position was vigorously opposed by traditional law, which did not regard error of law as a defense. Agitation favoring the traditional view finally resulted in the compromise solution adopted in the Penal Code of 1937.

'Ritter gegen Statthalteramt Zilrich, BGE 60 I 412 (1934). The tribunal said that "the very wording of. .. [Article 11] indicates that only a person who consciously (meaning, with consciousness of illegality) violates the law is subject to punishment." Ibid., at 418.



The normative theory as the result of compromise (Swiss Penal Code of

1937).--Switzerland, in her Penal Code of 1937, was first to give legal ex- pression to the new normative theory. This development did not result from dogmatic adherence to that theory but rather from a practical compromise between the traditional view, which rejected error of law as a defense, and the psychological theory expressed in Article 11 of the Federal Criminal Law of 1853.135 It will be remembered that Article 11 stated that the acts and omissions proscribed by the Code should be punishable only if committed "with illegal intent." Since "with illegal intent" was understood to mean "with knowledge of illegality," no separate provision on error of law was deemed necessary. The Code of 1937 omits the adjective "illegal" in describ- ing "intent." To be punishable, an act now need be committed only intention- ally, meaning with knowledge and will.1 3 6 This has been interpreted to mean that consciousness that the act is illegal or contrary to duty is no longer part

of intent.137



"'It is said in the leading case of Gbirner gegen Statthalteramt Luzern-Stadt, BGE 70 IV 97, 99-100 (1944), that "the appellant is not punishable unless he committed the violation intentionally (Arts. 102, 18, Penal Code). A person acts intentionally, if he commits the act with knowledge and will (Art. 18, §2, Penal Code). As may be seen from the very wording of this provision, which-in contrast to Article 11, Federal Criminal Law-does not speak of an illegal intent, consciousness that the act is illegal or contrary to duty is not a part of intent.”



The version which finally became law (Article 20), while granting that concession, is otherwise more limited than the original drafts. Article 20 provides that: "Where the actor assumed, on adequate grounds, that he had a right to act, the judge may, in his discretion, mitigate or entirely forego punishment.”
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  #24  
Old 16.02.2020, 13:23
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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He claims he didn't know what work was agreed with the landlord and just let them do what they wanted and now the landlord wants him to pay. Of course we don't know what the workman said to his wife.
Maybe when not knowing what was talked about between the workman and the wife it would not be the best advise to tell him to go after the landlord?
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  #25  
Old 16.02.2020, 13:59
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

@Daniel
I can understand that you feel stung. But I really do think that the others who have posted here are right: just pay the Fr. 300 and chalk it up to learning to distinguish between the parties to a contract.

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The version which finally became law (Article 20), while granting that concession, is otherwise more limited than the original drafts. Article 20 provides that: "Where the actor assumed, on adequate grounds, that he had a right to act, the judge may, in his discretion, mitigate or entirely forego punishment.”
This seems to be the key. OP's wife would, as I understand it, not have had "adequate grounds" to assume that it was alright to let the workmen do more work than those tasks which the landlord had agreed.

The OP and the OP's wife knew that the landlord had obtained a quote, and that this was for specific work (master bedroom), and that the landlord had accepted this quote and would arrange for the workmen to come and do the specified work (master bedroom).

From these facts alone, it can reasonably be deduced that it is the landlord who is the contractual partner with the workmen, and not the OP.

However, it can only be so assumed for the specific task (master bedroom) to which the landlord had agreed.

OP's wife had no basis upon which to reasonably assume that she had a right to act to extend (add child's bedroom) the scope of the contract between the landlord and the workmen. She has no basis to reasonably believe that she is an authorised agent of the landlord. Therefore, when she extended the scope (added child's bedroom), that was in her own agency, and therefore she pays for the top-up.

Last edited by doropfiz; 17.02.2020 at 03:15. Reason: typo
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Old 16.02.2020, 14:07
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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They most likely asked in Swiss German.

Hand workers usually can't speak a foreign language.
I don’t know of a single apprenticeship program that does not require learning at least two of the national languages. In the case of daughter and her friends they had the option of taking the English course to prepare them for the Cambridge exams as well. They just had to pay for the exam itself.
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Old 16.02.2020, 14:11
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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As I said, we feel they were not honest.
Honest is accepting that your wife made a mistake, not trying to shift the blame on everyone else.
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  #28  
Old 16.02.2020, 14:18
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Honest is accepting that your wife made a mistake, not trying to shift the blame on everyone else.
Yes. Honest is accepting that your wife - even though she didn't realise it at the time and hadn't thought the matter through, of who, exactly, were the contractual partners, and who would pay for the work - made a mistake in not clarifying, in a language she understands, exactly that aspect before allowing the extra work was performed.

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Daniel, you are likely going to have to pay the invoice and then chalk this up to a learning experience.
....
Look at it this way: CHF 300 is actually a small price to pay for a valuable lesson.

Put this behind you, it's not worth getting in a tizzy over. There will be more mistakes - and yes, most of us have made them too. Key is to learn something each time.
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Old 16.02.2020, 14:30
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Long answer short: Just pay the 300,-

You allowed for work to be done that was not agreed upon by the landlord.
The window company should not be doing any work that was not specifically agreed with the landlord as the contract was with him. If they had doubts they should have called the landlord. Sounds to me like they purposefully tried to do additional work, like many tradesmen do n CH.

If I were the OP I would be fighting and not be paying this and would say that I did not knowingly agree to anything in addition to what the landlord had agreed.
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  #30  
Old 16.02.2020, 14:34
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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I don’t know of a single apprenticeship program that does not require learning at least two of the national languages. In the case of daughter and her friends they had the option of taking the English course to prepare them for the Cambridge exams as well. They just had to pay for the exam itself.
Agreed.
Actually, in already at school, everybody must learn two of the national languages (one's own - in case of Swiss German that would be German) and one other.

And if the craftsmen were foreigners = have not attended school here, they obviously also spoke at least two languages: The Swiss German they apparently spoke to the wife in plus what ever language they grew up on before coming here.
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Old 16.02.2020, 14:50
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Agreed.
Actually, in already at school, everybody must learn two of the national languages (one's own - in case of Swiss German that would be German) and one other.

And if the craftsmen were foreigners = have not attended school here, they obviously also spoke at least two languages: The Swiss German they apparently spoke to the wife in plus what ever language they grew up on before coming here.
I can assure you that most kids in Aargau's real schule, which leads you straight to a low skill apprenticeship, are not even competent in Hochdeutsch.

Last edited by Danielfb; 16.02.2020 at 15:01.
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  #32  
Old 16.02.2020, 16:30
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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I can assure you that most kids in Aargau's real schule, which leads you straight to a low skill apprenticeship, are not even competent in Hochdeutsch.
And you and your wife have been here for at least eleven years... take responsibility for your actions, pay your bills and stop whining.
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  #33  
Old 16.02.2020, 17:57
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Don't be afraid of saying 'I don't understand' and ending the conversation. Don't feel pressured to be agreeable or gloss over lack of understanding. Yes, in many cultures we are socially trained to do so, so this is an automatic behavior many of us have to unlearn. Make sure you know the German for 'I do not have the authority to decide, you must ask the landlord (or other person/authority)' to help you get out of a uncomfortable situation, and use that phrase as a shield. In short, if you don't understand, say nothing.

.
This. Totally!!! So well put. And I think it's more specific to women, I sincerely believe we're more inclined to please people, to be "nice". OH is a very easy going guy but he doesn't have my "problems". He can ask a hundred questions before agreeing to something.
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Old 16.02.2020, 17:58
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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I can assure you that most kids in Aargau's real schule, which leads you straight to a low skill apprenticeship, are not even competent in Hochdeutsch.
Neither is my Swiss-German wife, as she only speaks Italian.

Also, it also leads straight to a high skill apprenticeship, something you should perhaps try.

Tom
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Old 16.02.2020, 19:09
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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And you and your wife have been here for at least eleven years... take responsibility for your actions, pay your bills and stop whining.
Eleven years you say? Not even half of that. You must have taken us for someone else.
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  #36  
Old 16.02.2020, 19:21
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Eleven years you say? Not even half of that. You must have taken us for someone else.
You mentioned in 2009 that you live in Baden and got a speeding ticket. Which is approx 11 years?
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  #37  
Old 16.02.2020, 19:30
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Neither is my Swiss-German wife, as she only speaks Italian.

Also, it also leads straight to a high skill apprenticeship, something you should perhaps try.

Tom
It all depends on what you consider to be high skilled. If you consider the EFZ, leaving aside the EBA, as high skilled apprenticeship, then yes.

Why should i try it?
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Old 16.02.2020, 19:32
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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You mentioned in 2009 that you live in Baden and got a speeding ticket. Which is approx 11 years?
Yes... but if you read that whole post about the speeding ticket you will also read that i was trying to pay it from abroad.
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Old 16.02.2020, 20:32
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Yes... but if you read that whole post about the speeding ticket you will also read that i was trying to pay it from abroad.
Some people on EF only know how to read bits of the post that they can use to bully/troll others
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Old 16.02.2020, 21:53
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Re: Consumer protection bureau

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Eleven years you say? Not even half of that. You must have taken us for someone else.
No I'm definitely talking about you, top left hand corner of your post or your profile!



Enough said.
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