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-   -   Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his responsabi (https://www.englishforum.ch/complaints-corner/297119-swiss-child-being-kicked-out-country-because-father-rejects-his-responsabi.html)

doropfiz 12.03.2020 18:44

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Luna,
I understand that it seems like there is no logic in this. However, it is partly a cultural difference, and partly one of the law.

Please remember that if you want something from the Swiss government (permission to live in Switzerland) then you will have to do things their way, and supply all the information that they ask of you.

I am not a lawyer, but I am trying to help you sort through the information, so that we (me? others on this forum?) can see whether there is something that can be done to help you.

Luna 12.03.2020 20:16

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3155803)
SECOND LIST OF QUESTIONS
  1. Did the Swiss man (your child's father) help you (and the boy) to come to Switzerland?
    He did travel documents only .

  2. Is there any legal document (like a Court Order) which proves that he has a legal obligation to pay the child (and you support)?
    Yes I have from many year before a court with the agreement of pension of the child .

  3. If there is, or if there isn't such a document, did he used to send you money to support the child (and you) while you were living in Brazil?
    Yes he always send after the decision of the court .

  4. Is he giving you any money now?
    He pay the pension , that is related to the cost of living in Brazil of course now in Switzerland if impossible support the child with the same amount .

  5. Is the Swiss man registered as living in Switzerland and does he have a home here? His father is a Swiss man , he have home and 2 bussines

  6. Since you have been in Switzerland, have you seen him, and has the boy seen his father?

I didnít saw him because when u whent there with my son I saw only his half brother the father was traveling in Thailand

doropfiz 12.03.2020 20:29

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Luna,
I know of a case which had some similar aspects to yours, but it may not be exactly the same.

In that case, I learnt that it is very, very difficult to sort the information. This is because the people involved are upset, and the legal procedures feel confusing.

Please, if you can, try to answer the questions in my lists. If we have those answers from you, it might help me (or help others) to give you good advice. I'm trying to help you, but have too little information.

Luna 12.03.2020 20:30

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
I read your answer thank you very much .
Itís unbelievable the law, the father have the right to make his wich ,
And the children donít have nobody to protect against the consequences this will cause in the psicolůgic of the child .
I have all this documents, I have financial applications, work contract , I have my son already in school aŪ study German and I finish now a tourism course and aŪ receive a Diploma of Expert in Switzerland, for sales tours in all Switzerland.
Im owner of a bussines and I can prove self independence with money .
I have a clean criminal record and bacharel in Tourism and many courses with Diploma .
My son is never staying here without me out of questions .
But he have during this years showing some problems because the missing of the father, so he ask to come because he want knew his origins he study German all day .
My first ask for permit, I not even ask for work permit because my meaning was he go school and I help him in the beginning . And I have incomes from my bussines and also I can prove , so they told I show have a job I found one and I show also the letter of intention , to as soon I got the permit I have the job I have many letter of friend telling about integrations etc ...
must have also another law that protect the interest of the child no ?
Because if u read the ONU agreement about the child , the child must have access a care for the family, etc ...

Mrs. Doolittle 12.03.2020 20:37

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Is the boy's father married ?

doropfiz 12.03.2020 20:38

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Okay, good, this is more to go on.

Please have a look at this standard example of a budget for a single parent with one child.
Click on "Budgetbeispiele mit 1 Kind" (budget examples with 1 child)

There are two:
CHF 3'500 to CHF 4'500
CHF 5'000 to CHF 6'000.

Would your job offer pay you that much?
You will probably need to provide a rental contract for accommodation that is in the range in those example budgets?

doropfiz 12.03.2020 20:40

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Does the boy's father work and earn a salary? Or is he self-employed? Or does he receive a pension from the Disabilty Office or an Old Age pension? Or does he receive benefits from the Social Security office?

doropfiz 12.03.2020 20:47

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3157676)
My son is never staying here without me out of questions .

The father has a legal right to give, or not to give, permission for the boy to leave Switzerland.

If the father does not give permission for the boy to leave Switzerland, then
  • the boy will have to stay, and
  • you will not be allowed or able to take him out of the country.

That sounds terrible! But if the father refuses to allow the child to leave, then this will be better for your case of trying to stay in Switzerland.

Medea Fleecestealer 12.03.2020 20:49

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
I'm still trying to get my head around all this. How old is your child? How can he miss someone he's never even met? :confused:

I'm not sure who told you to get an employment contract because as a non-EU national it's your potential employer who has to apply for a permit on your behalf and they have to prove they can't find a Swiss/EU national who could do the job.

Whether your finances are enough for the Swiss authorities to grant you a permit only they know. You might think it's enough, but they may not.

However much your son may want his father to care for him neither you, he nor the Swiss authorities can force him to. Even if there was some way it could be done it would only cause more resentment which would most likely be more harmful to your son than his father ignoring him.

Luna 12.03.2020 21:04

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Susie-Q (Post 3155831)
Yes to me it seems to be a not so clear story...authorities can't just kick a child that is a citizen out. Seems more like the mother hit hard times in Brazil and came knocking in Switzerland where life is better. Nobody knows the whole story, but the proper procedures need to be carried out.

No I didint came knock in Switzerland because the life ( economy in the reality ) better , life is relative ...
I didnít live in Brazil before came here I was already living in Europe ...
I donít need social Help at all .
Everybody have the rights to knew they origins . P

doropfiz 12.03.2020 21:05

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157686)
I'm still trying to get my head around all this. How old is your child? How can he miss someone he's never even met? :confused:

However old they are, children can miss the abstract father, the idea of knowing who their father is, of seeing him in his contact, have a yearning ot meet and know him. I think this is what Luna means. Remember, English is not her mother tongue. Also, we do not know if the child has never met the father. Perhaps the father previously visited them in Brazil or in Greece.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157686)
I'm not sure who told you to get an employment contract because as a non-EU national it's your potential employer who has to apply for a permit on your behalf and they have to prove they can't find a Swiss/EU national who could do the job.

Yes, you are right, that an employer cannot simply employ a non-EU person.
Luna, as I understand it, has a job offer. I think this is a letter from a company saying that, if the Swiss government would give her a permit, then they would employ her.

If Luna has any chance at all, to get permission to stay here, then it will be important that she can prove that - if allowed to stay - she will work.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157686)
Whether your finances are enough for the Swiss authorities to grant you a permit only they know. You might think it's enough, but they may not.

Yes, this is absolutely true.

Luna 12.03.2020 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157686)
I'm still trying to get my head around all this. How old is your child? How can he miss someone he's never even met? :confused:

I'm not sure who told you to get an employment contract because as a non-EU national it's your potential employer who has to apply for a permit on your behalf and they have to prove they can't find a Swiss/EU national who could do the job.

Whether your finances are enough for the Swiss authorities to grant you a permit only they know. You might think it's enough, but they may not.

However much your son may want his father to care for him neither you, he nor the Swiss authorities can force him to. Even if there was some way it could be done it would only cause more resentment which would most likely be more harmful to your son than his father ignoring him.

Nobody born form the egg itís natural the kids wants to knew his father, his culture and language .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. Doolittle (Post 3157680)
Is the boy's father married ?

Not married

doropfiz 12.03.2020 21:09

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157686)
However much your son may want his father to care for him neither you, he nor the Swiss authorities can force him to. Even if there was some way it could be done it would only cause more resentment which would most likely be more harmful to your son than his father ignoring him.

Yes, I agree with you here, too. Some fathers change their minds, over time, and open up. Others do not. And no-one can force them.

But Luna is right in this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3157699)
Nobody born form the egg it’s natural the kids wants to knew his father, his culture and language .

and this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3157696)
Everybody have the rights to knew they origins .

The generally accepted current psychological thinking is that is it better for a child to know who their parents are, than for those parents to just be unknown phantoms. This applies even if the parent is disinterested or bad.

The reason for this is so that the child can learn to live in reality, not in a fantasy world. Some children dream that their father (or mother) is a big bad monster, but when they meet them, they find out that they are quite ordinary. Other children spend years dreaming that thier absent parent will suddenly appear and rescue them, shower them with gifts, build them a big house, keep them safe and love them forever. If, then, they meet the real parent, it is easier for them to understand that those ideas are just a dream.

Therefore, if it can be possible for this son to meet the father, at least once, in safe conditions (maybe with a social worker) this would probably be good for the boy's psychological development, even if, then, he has to accept the sad reality that his father does not want a relationship.

Luna 12.03.2020 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3157682)
Does the boy's father work and earn a salary? Or is he self-employed? Or does he receive a pension from the Disabilty Office or an Old Age pension? Or does he receive benefits from the Social Security office?

He work in his own bussines and have a museum of moto in Switzerland, he donít receive pension or social .
sorry English is not my mother language sometimes is dificult explain very clear

Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3157674)
Luna,
I know of a case which had some similar aspects to yours, but it may not be exactly the same.

In that case, I learnt that it is very, very difficult to sort the information. This is because the people involved are upset, and the legal procedures feel confusing.

Please, if you can, try to answer the questions in my lists. If we have those answers from you, it might help me (or help others) to give you good advice. I'm trying to help you, but have too little information.

Im trying to understand and answer in the rights spaces the post .
Im not upset, I just donít understand how the state can protect the irresponsibility of the father, instead to protect the interest of the kid.
Nobody think the damage can cause in the psicolůgico of the kid, first reject for the father , after for hole country ?
Iím not guilty that his father donít have humanity .

Medea Fleecestealer 12.03.2020 21:20

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3157701)
Yes, I agree with you here, too. Some fathers change their minds, over time, and open up. Others do not. And no-one can force them.

But Luna is right in this:

and this:


The generally accepted current psychological thinking is that is it better for a child to know who their parents are, than for those parents to just be unknown phantoms. This applies even if the parent is disinterested or bad.

The reason for this is so that the child can learn to live in reality, not in a fantasy world. Some children dream that their father (or mother) is a big bad monster, but when they meet them, they find out that they are quite ordinary. Other children spend years dreaming that thier absent parent will suddenly appear and rescue them, shower them with gifts, build them a big house, keep them safe and love them forever. If, then, they meet the real parent, it is easier for them to understand that those ideas are just a dream.

Therefore, if it can be possible for this son to meet the father, at least once, in safe conditions (maybe with a social worker) this would probably be good for the boy's psychological development, even if, then, he has to accept the sad reality that his father does not want a relationship.

Or make it worse because now the child knows for real that his father doesn't want anything to do with him. Could be atm he just believes that if only his father met him he'd change his mind and they'd all be one happy family together. When that doesn't turn out to be the case what then? Is the child going to be happy to be living here, assuming the permit thing can be sorted out for the mother, knowing his father is near yet wants nothing to do with him?

And should it turn out that the father refuses permission for the child to leave yet the mother has to what psychological effect would that have on the child?

Luna 12.03.2020 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3157698)
However old they are, children can miss the abstract father, the idea of knowing who their father is, of seeing him in his contact, have a yearning ot meet and know him. I think this is what Luna means. Remember, English is not her mother tongue. Also, we do not know if the child has never met the father. Perhaps the father previously visited them in Brazil or in Greece.


Yes, you are right, that an employer cannot simply employ a non-EU person.
Luna, as I understand it, has a job offer. I think this is a letter from a company saying that, if the Swiss government would give her a permit, then they would employ her.

If Luna has any chance at all, to get permission to stay here, then it will be important that she can prove that - if allowed to stay - she will work.



Yes, this is absolutely true.

The immigration told to I do it that could help in the process.
Im doing all my interview personally in the immigration,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157713)
Or make it worse because now the child knows for real that his father doesn't want anything to do with him. Could be atm he just believes that if only his father met him he'd change his mind and they'd all be one happy family together. When that doesn't turn out to be the case what then? Is the child going to be happy to be living here, assuming the permit thing can be sorted out for the mother, knowing his father is near yet wants nothing to do with him?

And should it turn out that the father refuses permission for the child to leave yet the mother has to what psychological effect would that have on the child?

But is exactly this my son is asking for
Is very sad 2 Christmas he donít win present because he ask for the father, he told 3 times want to suicide after the letter that the father wrote telling that donít want have contact .
Im just a mother looking for erase a children in the best way I can for be became a respectable adult .
I saw some answer in this post attacking me, itís not because Iím from Brazil that Iím Poor , Itís not because Switzerland have a better economy that is a better place for living .
If the father of my son was from Somalia, I would be there also .
The DNA is very strong and even that he almost didnít have contact with the father, because last time he came he had one year , now he have 8 , so for him is like he donít remember , he have this with and nothing can change i
I was oriented for professional psicologist that the best should he see the father

greenmount 12.03.2020 21:34

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3157718)
But is exactly this my son is asking for
Is very sad 2 Christmas he don’t win present because he ask for the father, he told 3 times want to suicide after the letter that the father wrote telling that don’t want have contact .
Im just a mother looking for erase a children in the best way I can for be became a respectable adult .
I saw some answer in this post attacking me, it’s not because I’m from Brazil that I’m Poor , It’s not because Switzerland have a better economy that is a better place for living .
If the father of my son was from Somalia, I would be there also .
The DNA is very strong and even that he almost didn’t have contact with the father, because last time he came he had one year , now he have 8 , so for him is like he don’t remember , he have this with and nothing can change i
I was oriented for professional psicologist that the best should he see the father

Luna, I am sorry you and your son have all these problems.

Maybe it's worth trying one more time to explain this man that his son needs him just as a father, it's not about money or other material things.

If not, I think you need a psychologist to talk with you son (you need that either way) and help him understand this complicated adult world and that is not his fault.

As for people making assumptions because of your nationality, it's nothing personal - they make assumptions for every other nationality. :D
It's what humans do. :)

I wish we could be more helpful here, know more about the Swiss laws that would apply in your situation, but we don't. If you can afford a lawyer, that would be the best!!!

Good luck, have strength.

Luna 12.03.2020 21:40

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3157722)
Luna, I am sorry you and your son have all these problems.

Maybe it's worth trying one more time to explain this man that his son needs him just as a father, it's not about money or other material things.

If not, I think you need a psychologist to talk with you son (you need that either way) and help him understand this complicated adult world and that is not his fault.

As for people making assumptions because of your nationality, it's nothing personal - they make assumptions for every other nationality. :D
It's what humans do. :)

A forum is for discuss the subject not attract the person with personals believes .
By the way Me or my son have no intention of construct a family with his father or so .
Itís completely a question of he knew .
He ask to see and give a present, he is not dreaming in move and live with the father .
Itís really a question of Identity, Origens

roegner 12.03.2020 21:50

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Unfortunately that doesnt give you rights to live here? Anyway, good luck!

st2lemans 12.03.2020 21:53

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
At the end of the day, your son is free to live here, but you are not.

So, your child is not being kicked out, rather you are.

Sorry, but that's how it works here and in many other countries.

Tom


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