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-   -   Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his responsabi (https://www.englishforum.ch/complaints-corner/297119-swiss-child-being-kicked-out-country-because-father-rejects-his-responsabi.html)

Luna 12.03.2020 21:53

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 3157734)
Unfortunately that doesnt give you rights to live here? Anyway, good luck!

Funny that can not live here but must came to make arm when is 18 ...

st2lemans 12.03.2020 21:54

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3157737)
Funny that can not live here but must came to make arm when is 18 ...

He CAN live here, it is you who cannot.

Tom

Luna 12.03.2020 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3157736)
At the end of the day, your son is free to live here, but you are not.

So, your child is not being kicked out, rather you are.

Sorry, but that's how it works here and in many other countries.

Tom

He is being kicking because I’m here representing his legal guardian .

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3157740)
He CAN live here, it is you who cannot.

Tom

Yes he can live alone with 8 years !!!
For sure he can !

st2lemans 12.03.2020 21:56

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3157742)
Yes he can live alone with 8 years !!!
For sure he can !

No, they can put him in a foster home.

If you cannot stay, and his father objects to his leaving the country, that what will happen!

Tom

Luna 12.03.2020 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3157681)
Okay, good, this is more to go on.

Please have a look at this standard example of a budget for a single parent with one child.
Click on "Budgetbeispiele mit 1 Kind" (budget examples with 1 child)

There are two:
CHF 3'500 to CHF 4'500
CHF 5'000 to CHF 6'000.

Would your job offer pay you that much?
You will probably need to provide a rental contract for accommodation that is in the range in those example budgets?

Yes I’m able to provide al this but they still taking the point, that because the acritude of the father we can’t stay . If the father change his mind and say would like have a contact , then yes ... would be ok

Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3157681)
Okay, good, this is more to go on.

Please have a look at this standard example of a budget for a single parent with one child.
Click on "Budgetbeispiele mit 1 Kind" (budget examples with 1 child)

There are two:
CHF 3'500 to CHF 4'500
CHF 5'000 to CHF 6'000.

Would your job offer pay you that much?
You will probably need to provide a rental contract for accommodation that is in the range in those example budgets?

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3157743)
No, they can put him in a foster home.

If you cannot stay, and his father objects to his leaving the country, that what will happen!

Tom

They can’t take a child to a foster home that work the hole life have a clean criminal report and money ... I really don’t believe this is possible .

roegner 12.03.2020 22:07

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Why are you so keen on staying here? If the father does not want access, would it not be better if he stays with you in your home country with your family?

doropfiz 12.03.2020 22:08

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3157749)
They can’t take a child to a foster home that work the hole life have a clean criminal report and money ... I really don’t believe this is possible .

I can understand that you don't believe it is possible. And yes, it sounds crazy.
But Tom is right.

This is because of what I wrote at the start: they see your son's case, and your case as separate.

Luna 12.03.2020 22:14

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3157722)
Luna, I am sorry you and your son have all these problems.

Maybe it's worth trying one more time to explain this man that his son needs him just as a father, it's not about money or other material things.

If not, I think you need a psychologist to talk with you son (you need that either way) and help him understand this complicated adult world and that is not his fault.

As for people making assumptions because of your nationality, it's nothing personal - they make assumptions for every other nationality. :D
It's what humans do. :)

I wish we could be more helpful here, know more about the Swiss laws that would apply in your situation, but we don't. If you can afford a lawyer, that would be the best!!!

Good luck, have strength.

Thank I have a lower that is taking care, but is really a non usual situation.

doropfiz 12.03.2020 22:16

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Luna, one thing you have to get very, very clear. If the father has said he does not want to see the child, this is unlikely to change. Some fathers who first say no, they do not want to know the child do later change and say yes, but not many. Some can be persuaded by a psychologist or social worker.

But mostly, if the father(or a mother) does not want a relationship with the child, then that is the end of the story. It is very sad for your son. But is is the fact. No-one can force a disinterested parent to love and care for their child. This part is nothing to do with the Swiss laws. It is the same all over the world.

Therefore, you have to think only about your boy's life (without his father ) and your life. So I think roegner is asking a good question here:
Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 3157751)
Why are you so keen on staying here? If the father does not want access, would it not be better if he stays with you in your home country with your family?

... in your home country Brazil or in your former country of residence, Greece.

Luna 12.03.2020 22:17

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 3157751)
Why are you so keen on staying here? If the father does not want access, would it not be better if he stays with you in your home country with your family?

We didint live in Brazil, home country ? Half Swiss half Brasil.
He like here more and feel more happy and comfortable . Also he says that his origens is not only the father but also the hole contest envolvinf

doropfiz 12.03.2020 22:25

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Luna, the Swiss government can never make your son leave, because he is Swiss.
But it is definitely possible that the Swiss government can make you leave. If they don't give you a permit, you have to go. That's a fact.

As I wrote, I knew of a similar case to yours. Then, a lawyer did succeed in getting permission for the non-EU mother to stay.

But the big, central, key point there was that the father had refused permission for the child to leave Switzerland. That father said the child was not allowed to go.... even though the father had no interest in seeing the child. So they let the mother stay to look after the child.

I do not know if this is your situation.
I do not know if an application by the mother can succeed if the father is willing to allow the mother to take the child out of Switzerland. The Swiss immigration authorities may then just say: you've got the choice: take your boy with you, or leave him here and we'll put him in a foster family or a children's home.

The other case succeeded because they could not give the mother that choice.

doropfiz 13.03.2020 02:31

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157713)
Or make it worse because now the child knows for real that his father doesn't want anything to do with him. Could be atm he just believes that if only his father met him he'd change his mind and they'd all be one happy family together. When that doesn't turn out to be the case what then? Is the child going to be happy to be living here, assuming the permit thing can be sorted out for the mother, knowing his father is near yet wants nothing to do with him?

Yes, from what Luna writes, I think that she herself still hopes that the father will develop an interest in the boy, and therefore it is probaly so that the boy hopes this, too. That's natural enough. But at least Luna has made it clear, here, that she has no dreams of "one happy family". If her son, on the other hand, has such dreams, then the sooner he understands that they have no substance, the better it will be for him. He will become free to be open to other relationships.

Irrespective of where the boy lives, whether Switzerland, Greece, or Brazil, he is going to have to face the truth (the sad, terrible, hurtful truth) is that this father is not interested in getting to know his son. It really is very sad! Rejection is hard for anyone, and coming to terms with this truth will be a painful process to go through, for both the boy and his mother.

The boy needs his mother to teach him the truth about relationships: he needs to learn from her that no-one can be forced to buy a birthday present if they do not want to do, and that no-one, ever, can be made to show love that they do not feel. He needs to hear that one can never make another person change their feelings. Everyone is in charge of their own feelings, and so the boy, too, can learn how to deal with the rejection.

This boy needs to learn from his mother that it is possible that, one day, the father may change his mind and his heart, but that is very unlikely. He needs her to explain that, if ever, in years to come, the father changes how he feels, and decides he wants to meet the boy, then at that time, the boy can see how he feels, and then the father and the son can work out whether or not to meet, and how.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157713)
And should it turn out that the father refuses permission for the child to leave yet the mother has to what psychological effect would that have on the child?

Probably devastating. Indeed, in such a case, in the legal argumentation when applying for permission for the mother to be allowed to stay in Switzerland, the child's well-being should be a central point.

In any case - but especially so he can be strong if he is separated from his mother because she is not given a permit - this boy needs her to reassure him that he is valuable and complete, even without a father. He needs to know from her that many, many children all over the world live without a father, or without a mother, or even without either father or mother, and they can grow up, and learn, and do good things, and be alright, especially when other good people look after them, and also from within their own strengths and talents.

This boy is now 8 or 9 years old, which is old enough to learn these things, if they are explained to him carefully and honestly.

doropfiz 13.03.2020 02:45

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Luna, I understand that you are reading and writing here, with some difficulty, because of the English. Well done for trying.

Just in case you know only one or the other of "google translate" and "deepl": I've found that sometimes one gets a better translation by reading both versions next to each other.

google translate gives
O menino precisa que sua mãe lhe ensine a verdade sobre os relacionamentos: ele precisa aprender com ela que ninguém pode ser forçado a comprar um presente de aniversário, se não quiserem, e que ninguém, jamais, pode ser feito mostrar amor que eles não sentem. Ele precisa ouvir que nunca se pode fazer outra pessoa mudar seus sentimentos. Todo mundo está encarregado de seus próprios sentimentos, e assim o menino também pode aprender a lidar com a rejeição.
and deepl gives
O menino precisa que sua mãe lhe ensine a verdade sobre os relacionamentos: ele precisa aprender com ela que ninguém pode ser obrigado a comprar um presente de aniversário se não quiser, e que ninguém, nunca, pode ser obrigado a mostrar amor que não sente. Ele precisa ouvir que nunca se pode fazer outra pessoa mudar os seus sentimentos. Todos estão encarregados dos seus próprios sentimentos, e assim o rapaz também pode aprender a lidar com a rejeição.

google translate gives
Independentemente de onde o menino mora, seja na Suíça, na Grécia ou no Brasil, ele terá que enfrentar a verdade (a triste, terrível, dolorosa verdade) é que esse pai não está interessado em conhecer o filho. É realmente muito triste! Rejeitar é difícil para qualquer um, e aceitar essa verdade será um processo doloroso, tanto para o menino quanto para sua mãe.
and deepl gives
Independentemente de onde o menino mora, seja na Suíça, na Grécia ou no Brasil, ele terá que enfrentar a verdade (a triste, terrível, dolorosa) é que este pai não está interessado em conhecer seu filho. É realmente muito triste! A rejeição é difícil para qualquer um, e aceitar esta verdade será um processo doloroso, tanto para o menino quanto para sua mãe.

doropfiz 22.03.2020 23:47

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Hi Luna,
I wonder how you're doing. And most especially whether the situation with all the Corona measures has brought you into difficulties.

Are you still in Switzerland? I wonder whether the current travel restrictions mean that you can't leave Switzerland, at the moment. Have you been able to contact a lawyer who could help you? I hope you're alright.

simplesimon 07.05.2020 02:45

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3157825)
Yes, from what Luna writes, I think that she herself still hopes that the father will develop an interest in the boy, and therefore it is probaly so that the boy hopes this, too. That's natural enough. But at least Luna has made it clear, here, that she has no dreams of "one happy family". If her son, on the other hand, has such dreams, then the sooner he understands that they have no substance, the better it will be for him. He will become free to be open to other relationships.

Irrespective of where the boy lives, whether Switzerland, Greece, or Brazil, he is going to have to face the truth (the sad, terrible, hurtful truth) is that this father is not interested in getting to know his son. It really is very sad! Rejection is hard for anyone, and coming to terms with this truth will be a painful process to go through, for both the boy and his mother.

The boy needs his mother to teach him the truth about relationships: he needs to learn from her that no-one can be forced to buy a birthday present if they do not want to do, and that no-one, ever, can be made to show love that they do not feel. He needs to hear that one can never make another person change their feelings. Everyone is in charge of their own feelings, and so the boy, too, can learn how to deal with the rejection.

This boy needs to learn from his mother that it is possible that, one day, the father may change his mind and his heart, but that is very unlikely. He needs her to explain that, if ever, in years to come, the father changes how he feels, and decides he wants to meet the boy, then at that time, the boy can see how he feels, and then the father and the son can work out whether or not to meet, and how.


Probably devastating. Indeed, in such a case, in the legal argumentation when applying for permission for the mother to be allowed to stay in Switzerland, the child's well-being should be a central point.

In any case - but especially so he can be strong if he is separated from his mother because she is not given a permit - this boy needs her to reassure him that he is valuable and complete, even without a father. He needs to know from her that many, many children all over the world live without a father, or without a mother, or even without either father or mother, and they can grow up, and learn, and do good things, and be alright, especially when other good people look after them, and also from within their own strengths and talents.

This boy is now 8 or 9 years old, which is old enough to learn these things, if they are explained to him carefully and honestly.

Outstanding post. If I knew how to do it (or even if I could find out here on the search option, which I don’t seem able to), you deserve reputation. Meantime, I humbly raise my cap to you.

Also, for the empathy you have shown to the OP. Again: Outstanding.

SS

swisspea 07.05.2020 09:22

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Can I also clarify that if your son has dual citizenship but lives outside of Switzerland, he is not required to come back for military service. It is not required in that way.


Do you, the mother have an EU passport - we all assumed you are Brazilian, but you say you were living in Greece - so is that a better option for you ? (You meaning, the mother, not the child).

smileygreebins 07.05.2020 11:46

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
@dropfiz - agree with Simplesimon - your support to the OP has been incredibly generous, patient, genuinely helpful, and very kind.

doropfiz 07.05.2020 23:18

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Thank you, simplesimon and smileygreebins, for your very kind words. Much appreciated.

Swisspea makes a very good point about EU citizenship. Although Luna's profile says she's Brazilian, maybe she'd have access to Greek citizenship, which would make things so much better.

Luna doesn't seem to have logged on for quite a while, now, but perhaps she reads here, anyway, without logging on. I did wonder what effect the Corona regulations had on her and her son, and whether they were inside, or outside, of Switzerland, at the time that the borders closed. I hope they're alright.

smileygreebins 08.05.2020 10:43

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Reading the interactions, it was a timely reminder of how difficult it is to have very limited language proficiency, in a foreign country; and how frustrating this becomes when dealing with an extremely emotional subject, whilst applying your own values and understanding of the law to a completely different culture and jurisdiction.

Chuff 08.05.2020 11:24

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3157686)
I'm still trying to get my head around all this. How old is your child? How can he miss someone he's never even met? :confused:

I read this and thought "wtf"... have you lived under a rock your entire life? Even if you or no-one you know has had similar experiences, the negative effects of a child growing up without a father (or mother) has been fed to us in popular culture, literature or cinema since goodness knows when. The potential implications on the psyche of a child not knowing who his father is, or not having contact with his father, are just downright obvious... especially when the mother is also deeply stressed about it. Eek. :msnshock:


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