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  #61  
Old 08.05.2020, 10:31
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

Yes. And added to that, Luna is writing in a foreign language, when she uses the verb "to miss".

Even if the child has not ever met his father, or met him only a few times or only long ago, I still understand that when she writes "he misses" she is probably also including "he yearns for", "he longs for", "he wants to get to know" and "he dreams of knowing" his father. Quite naturally so.
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Old 08.05.2020, 11:25
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

Perhaps Luna has decided just to up sticks and leave CH with her son whilst she still can. Perhaps the thought of potentially having to leave her son in CH and the horrors of what the CH justice and welfare system can have in store are too much to bear.

I fully understand.

SS
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  #63  
Old 08.05.2020, 11:33
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

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Perhaps Luna has decided just to up sticks and leave CH with her son whilst she still can. Perhaps the thought of potentially having to leave her son in CH and the horrors of what the CH justice and welfare system can have in store are too much to bear.

I fully understand.

SS

Your experience is not that of others. Calling the system a horror based on your experience is a bit much?



As with anything else here, we most of the time hear only one side of the story. And people like Doropfiz are a great help to find your way through the system.
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  #64  
Old 08.05.2020, 11:54
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

Yes, we hear only one side of the story. But yes, I do think that some aspects of the Swiss legal systems are, indeed, a horror.

If SS is 100% right and the version he tells us 100% true - then it is awful! But even if SS is completely wrong, and grossly distorting what happened, then the Swiss legal system still seems to have made it possible for that family's story to drag on for a long, painful time, which can't be healthy, nor economical. There are several other users on this forum, too, and I know others, who decribe their agony with the system.

Sometimes, I believe, the matter is protracted because the parties do not understand the legal framework, which documents are required, which formalilties must be gone through, how the steps work from "our side" to "the other side", and back again, etc., and how they are required to behave, what counts as fair cooperation, what will count against them as being oppositional. And also: what is peripheral and even irrelevant to the legal matter at hand.

In those times that I have had dealings with lawyers for myself or people close to me, or when helping others, I have never yet found one who was willing to explain an overview, step-by-step, of the procedures that need to be completed.

The reputable Beobachter magazine publishes guide-books on, say, divorce, but even they give lots of text but no flow-charts. Nor have I found any online (though perhaps ASwissInTheUS will be able to do so.)

I think that a lot of the suffering would be diminished if the structure were known. It would be great if there could be an app for this, so that one could select the name of the current legal document one's lawyer has just received, and the app would say: "This document contains the other party's decription of...." and then either: "The next step is that the Court will set a date. Currently, this typically takes n months", or else: "You have 30 days to reply. Your reply will be in a document called..." and "If you cannot meet the 30-day deadline, it is considered reasonable that you may apply for another 30 days. Such applications are always granted.", etc., etc., so that one could always know what kinds of steps would be coming one's way.
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Old 08.05.2020, 12:36
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

Luna hasn't answered for 2 months. Maybe what she needs is privacy.
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Old 08.05.2020, 12:51
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

It has been written several times in this thread that whereas her child, as a Swiss citizen has the absolute right to live in Switzerland, Luna does not. That is correct as far as it goes, but to the extent that the European Treaties grant rights, those can be used, or gamed, to her advantage. Somewhere Greece was mentioned. Under the Chen/Zhu decision of the CJEU a European citizen child has the right to live in the EU (and presumably with reservations and conditions, the EEA/Switzerland) with a Third Country National parent. In the Chen case, Chinese parents contrived to have the baby born in Northern Ireland after 1983 (so the UK had abolished jus soli for children of non-settled parents) but Ireland had not yet done so, and the parents opted for Irish citizenship for the child. (FWIW we did that in 1983 for our youngest daughter, although as events developed she did register as British at age 14, and she is also Swiss, but she works as an NHS surgeon.) Crass Irish politicians, raising the spectre of illegal immigrants and anchor babies, succeeded in getting their Constitution amended in 2004. None of that affects Luna's child of course: he already has Swiss citizenship, and therefore whatever Treaty rights the EU grants, from birth. If the child has the right to live, say, in the enclaves of Büsingen am Hochrhein or in Campione d'Italia, so does the mother and then they are *almost* in Switzerland. As others have implied, in this as in so many family-law and right-of-residence cases, and especially when they say it's not about the money you can be sure it's all about the money.
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  #67  
Old 08.05.2020, 14:20
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

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Your experience is not that of others. Calling the system a horror based on your experience is a bit much?
I take what you say. And it is refreshing to read that my musings are not wholly brushed off as if I am making everything up as I go along.

CH has some good intentioned laws to protect those who need it, I will concede that. But, for example, is not going to prison speeding but some meagre kms over the speed limit somewhat extreme?

Anyways, our exchange about this and that is not appropriate in this thread.
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  #68  
Old 08.05.2020, 14:22
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

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Yes, we hear only one side of the story. But yes, I do think that some aspects of the Swiss legal systems are, indeed, a horror.

If SS is 100% right and the version he tells us 100% true - then it is awful! But even if SS is completely wrong, and grossly distorting what happened, then the Swiss legal system still seems to have made it possible for that family's story to drag on for a long, painful time, which can't be healthy, nor economical. There are several other users on this forum, too, and I know others, who decribe their agony with the system.

Sometimes, I believe, the matter is protracted because the parties do not understand the legal framework, which documents are required, which formalilties must be gone through, how the steps work from "our side" to "the other side", and back again, etc., and how they are required to behave, what counts as fair cooperation, what will count against them as being oppositional. And also: what is peripheral and even irrelevant to the legal matter at hand.

In those times that I have had dealings with lawyers for myself or people close to me, or when helping others, I have never yet found one who was willing to explain an overview, step-by-step, of the procedures that need to be completed.

The reputable Beobachter magazine publishes guide-books on, say, divorce, but even they give lots of text but no flow-charts. Nor have I found any online (though perhaps ASwissInTheUS will be able to do so.)

I think that a lot of the suffering would be diminished if the structure were known. It would be great if there could be an app for this, so that one could select the name of the current legal document one's lawyer has just received, and the app would say: "This document contains the other party's decription of...." and then either: "The next step is that the Court will set a date. Currently, this typically takes n months", or else: "You have 30 days to reply. Your reply will be in a document called..." and "If you cannot meet the 30-day deadline, it is considered reasonable that you may apply for another 30 days. Such applications are always granted.", etc., etc., so that one could always know what kinds of steps would be coming one's way.
Thank you so much Doropfiz, your support has been noted and appreciated.
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  #69  
Old 08.05.2020, 14:38
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

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I take what you say. And it is refreshing to read that my musings are not wholly brushed off as if I am making everything up as I go along.

CH has some good intentioned laws to protect those who need it, I will concede that. But, for example, is not going to prison speeding but some meagre kms over the speed limit somewhat extreme?
You do not go to prison here for "some meagre kms" over the speed limit. You need to be a long way over (proportionately) for that to be a risk.
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Old 08.05.2020, 16:34
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

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Thank you so much Doropfiz, your support has been noted and appreciated.
My support is not saying we should believe every word as gospel, and Roegner is certainly right in saying we've heard only your side. As it happens, though, my hunch is that you've probably told us the outline more or less as it is. Without presuming to apportion blame, it sounds like you've been through hell.

You may be right or wrong about some legal technicalities, and if you've made errors, then I believe it is because the sytems are made to be so opaque. And yes, some of your posts had certain inconsistencies, but that's not so very surprising given that they compressed the complexity of a harrowing case, spread over years, into a few posts. (And by the way, I also think that if you would like to send a letter to your daughter, you should not engage a private investigator, but that it should go through a lawyer.)

But even if you're presenting a slanted narrative (and to some extent we all do, all the time, it's only a question of degree) I am still convinced that there is something very fundamentally wrong in the way the legal system works, when a divorce case, and custody, and visitation rights, and financial settlements, could be made to drag on and on ad nauseam, draining everyone's nerves and resources of money, time, energy and health. That's just not in anyone's best interests, except perhaps the lawyers, but even some of them work for more hours than they actually bill, because they, too, find the system bizarre.

I understand why any divorcing spouse would prefer to go for a clean break, if possible.

Having said that, I'm not so sure this protraction is particularly a Swiss phenomenon. A barrister in the UK once said: "Our job is to identify the crazy one. And then to persuade the more rational party to make just enough concessions to prevent the crazy from keeping us all in Court, interminably."

I know a couple in another EU country whose two children were in primary-school when they divorced. The children then lived, sometimes together, sometimes separately, at times with the father and at times with the mother. These parents waged a war with each other about support payments, even after they had each married someone else, and everyone had more than enough money to live on.

By the time their own children were grown up, had finished their first post-school qualifications, had each had their own children, and were earning their own living, the ex-couple had wound each other up enough to finally make it all the way to the European Court of Human Rights! What a waste of resources of all kinds, and not only those of the warring parties.

Last edited by doropfiz; 08.05.2020 at 17:15.
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Old 09.05.2020, 03:53
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Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon

I did mean the wider context Doropfiz and my apologies for suggesting or inferring otherwise......thank you for clarifying.

We are largely off topic here but here goes:

I agree......It appears fundamentally wrong that the courts and judicial system can not only drag matters out over several years (with all the negatives that Doropfiz has said about that and they are very much reality) but also, in the case of matters where children are concerned, make one parent the legally enforced Financier (and nothing else) for as much as a Court can enforce that the other parent demands, in the name of the child.

It also appears fundamentally wrong that the Financier parent is made responsible by a court for further financial decisions taken solely by the parent with custody of the child, especially when it is crystal clear that these costs cannot be met from a monthly salary alone.

This is a core problem in my mind that needs to be addressed. I suggest that most financier parents want to be a part of their child’s lives. But they cannot, if the other parent denies this to them through means such as hostile aggressive parenting - a method/tactic/behaviour that is well known - and when the whole matter then becomes solely about money to the point where even what you have financially beyond your salary becomes the Court’s next point of focus to “fund the lifestyle”.

Also the lawmakers, judges and courts: Where the parents cannot, is it not in the Court’s interests to find a workable solution that can be applied and that works for everyone (most importantly the child)? Whose interests is it in to make a judgement that for whatever reason involves everyone being back in Court, same place same time, 4 to 6 months later? And whose interests is it in if the judgement that is made cannot be applied in reality? And the loser is.....? The child.

I have come to the realisation, as Doropfiz has said, that when the legal system becomes involved everything becomes opaque (more: grey, messy and confusing). Nothing is clear anymore. You are taken on an emotionally tormenting and exhausting white knuckle ride. Parameters and scenarios you are told and explained beforehand are not those that you encounter in reality, dimensions of time, cost and outcome become totally distorted, you are called to attend hearings in person only to be asked why you are there and that is was a “clerical error”, and decision related rationale and common sense as it applies to the documents that have been requested and supplied do not apply. The term “a law unto themselves” seems to sum the Courts up pretty accurately.

Now, I can relate to anyone who is apprehensive if not scared out of their wits when confronted with the CH legal system (not only in CH actually, but anywhere) and who has something as precious to lose as their child, because where one terrible situation can be allowed to happen (and you can read them, they are out there) there will be many more that can just as easily happen. I simply would not risk it. Even if, that is, you can stomach the horrendous costs to start with.

I’m still here, the proud owner of (nothing more than) the clothes that I am stood up in. And whilst for me things can never be the same again I really hope that as far as Luna is concerned, all works out for her and that she does not lose her son as a well intentioned consequence of going to CH. I have a gut feel, she does. Lt deserve it.

My experience is shared pro bono. Canis canem edit.

SS
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