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-   -   Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his responsabi (https://www.englishforum.ch/complaints-corner/297119-swiss-child-being-kicked-out-country-because-father-rejects-his-responsabi.html)

Luna 08.03.2020 23:58

Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his responsabi
 
The father of the son refused to see him and participate India growing and education, I receive a small amount for food and I would like to have some help about Swiss laws and parental obligation .
A short introduction
Brazilian Mother
Swiss father
Never married
The child is recognized and have all the Swiss documents .
Im here since December and was a very big fight to put my son in school because the immigration says , that because his father don’t whant contact my son is not allowed to stay with me in the country .
So first the father reject and now a holy country ???
Someone who understands about law can give some informations ?
Please send me a inbox if can help .
Dificult explains the home situation here .
But basically is this , my son wants his father looks after him and have responsibility, a legal process can obligate visits ?
The line a Swiss citizens don’t have the right to fora and go Schöll in his country ?

swisspea 09.03.2020 00:50

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Would you prefer that the father take the child and you have to go back to your home country ? Be careful what you wish for!


The problem is not your son, it's your status - you are not entitled to a work permit/residency/social support. If you abandon your child and the father has already said he will not look after him, he would become parent-less and go to foster care.



If you really want your child to be able to live in Switzerland, then you have to find your own independent finances, a job with enough salary to support both you and your child - independently...



If your child has no actual contact with his Swiss family, then why bring him to live in Switzerland (go to school!) - the belief is that he is better-off in Brazil, where his roots are strong.



I'm guessing that you even entered Switzerland illegally to bring your son ? Unless you have a Swiss/ European passport ?

doropfiz 09.03.2020 03:05

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Hi Luna.
I can understand that you must be very worried.

I do not know if I can help you. But for any of us here on this forum to give you advice, I think we will need to understand a bit more.

Could you please try to answer these questions? That might help us to help you.

doropfiz 09.03.2020 03:09

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
FIRST LIST OF QUESTIONS
  1. Do you and your son have a safe place to stay now?

  2. Did you succeed in getting your son into school, or not?

  3. If he is still not in school, who told you, and where, that he could not go to school?
    If he is a Swiss citizen, properly registered, he is allowed to stay in Switzerland and he must go to school.

  4. Do you have a proper visa or permit to be in Switzerland? For how long?

  5. Do you have any letters from the Migration Authorities? If so, it is very important to respond to them.

doropfiz 09.03.2020 03:13

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
SECOND LIST OF QUESTIONS
  1. Did the Swiss man (your child's father) help you (and the boy) to come to Switzerland?

  2. Is there any legal document (like a Court Order) which proves that he has a legal obligation to pay the child (and you support)?

  3. If there is, or if there isn't such a document, did he used to send you money to support the child (and you) while you were living in Brazil?

  4. Is he giving you any money now?

  5. Is the Swiss man registered as living in Switzerland and does he have a home here?

  6. Since you have been in Switzerland, have you seen him, and has the boy seen his father?

doropfiz 09.03.2020 03:23

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swisspea (Post 3155798)
If you abandon your child and the father has already said he will not look after him, he would become parent-less and go to foster care.

I don't think it is necessarily a question of abandoning the child.

If the mother is forced (by the Swiss Immigration Authorities) to leave Switzerland, and if at that time the boy's Swiss father does not give permission for her to take their Swiss son out of Switzerland with her, then she will be have to go, but have leave her child here.

In that case, if the father does not want to (or cannot) take care of the boy, then yes, the boy will be put into foster care.

I hope we get a bit more information, to see if we can suggest help for Luna.

Medea Fleecestealer 09.03.2020 06:53

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
I would also be concerned for the OP's status here. Brazilians can be here as tourists for up to 3 months without a tourist visa, but if she arrived in December then her time is nearly up, if she's not already overstayed.

Sorry, but it doesn't matter what your son wants. If the father doesn't want contact in any way, that's it. You can't force yourself on someone which it seems to me you're trying to do.

doropfiz 09.03.2020 08:29

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3155809)
Sorry, but it doesn't matter what your son wants. If the father doesn't want contact in any way, that's it. You can't force yourself on someone which it seems to me you're trying to do.

I understand how you meant this. But I disagree: it does matter, very much, what the son wants, and it's important to acknowledge that. This seems to be, sadly, a situation where the son (and the mother) are going to have to learn that one doesn't always get what one wants.

As soon as the Social Services (called Sozialamt in German) and/or the Child Protection Agency (called KESB, in German) is/are involved, it is very likely that a social worker will try to encourage the father to see his son, at least once, or at least occasionally. This is because it is generally deemed better for a child's psychological development to know who both parents are, having a real image, rather than growing up with a fantasy notion of who and how the father might be.

You are also right, though, Medea, that if the father really does not want to see the son at all, then he cannot be made to do so. There is also no obligation upon him, at all, to see the child's mother.

I hope OP comes back and answers some of the questions, so we can see if we can advise her.

greenmount 09.03.2020 09:02

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna (Post 3155795)
The father of the son refused to see him and participate India growing and education, I receive a small amount for food and I would like to have some help about Swiss laws and parental obligation .
A short introduction
Brazilian Mother
Swiss father
Never married
The child is recognized and have all the Swiss documents .
Im here since December and was a very big fight to put my son in school because the immigration says , that because his father don’t whant contact my son is not allowed to stay with me in the country .
So first the father reject and now a holy country ???
Someone who understands about law can give some informations ?
Please send me a inbox if can help .
Dificult explains the home situation here .
But basically is this , my son wants his father looks after him and have responsibility, a legal process can obligate visits ?
The line a Swiss citizens don’t have the right to fora and go Schöll in his country ?

Hi Luna,


Your message is not very clear and people would need more information from you to understand your situation. I take it you used an online translator.


How old is your son and for how long did he live in Switzerland with you before and when?


Is your child a Swiss citizen i.e. does he have a Swiss passport? If not, can he get the Swiss citizenship so he would be allowed to stay here regardless of his father's behaviour? This is a question some people might know how to answer.

I have no idea if he has a right to the Swiss citizenship based on the fact that he is a recognised child of a Swiss citizen. If he has, his and probably your situation might change. You too might get a Swiss residence permit based on that, but I am not sure.

Could you get in touch with people from your home country who are also living in Switzerland and know better how things work here? They might at least help you with translating a petition and with addressing it to the right institutions? Migrants' rights are often overlooked because they lack language skills and don't know where to address their questions/petitions/complaints.

You made the first step - asking on a public forum, but you really need to ask the Swiss competent institutions!

Good luck, hope someone else here can be more helpful.

st2lemans 09.03.2020 09:07

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3155821)
I have no idea if he has a right to the Swiss citizenship based on the fact that he is a recognised child of a Swiss citizen.

If either parent is Swiss, the child is automatically a Swiss citizen, there is no question of "right to Swiss citizenship". ;)

Tom

Susie-Q 09.03.2020 09:20

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3155823)
If either parent is Swiss, the child is automatically a Swiss citizen, there is no question of "right to Swiss citizenship". ;)

Tom

Yes to me it seems to be a not so clear story...authorities can't just kick a child that is a citizen out. Seems more like the mother hit hard times in Brazil and came knocking in Switzerland where life is better. Nobody knows the whole story, but the proper procedures need to be carried out.

Caleb 09.03.2020 09:33

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Question for those more familiar with the topic: if the child has a Swiss passport, and his biological father is not involved in his upbringing, wouldn't the non-resident mother get any sort of immigration leniency to allow her to stay temporarily? I understand that the boy has an irrefutable right to stay, and has only 1 involved parent. The state could either choose to support the boy and put him through foster care, or for the welfare of the child provide a permit for the mother (e.g. an S Permit) and Sozialhilfe until he turns 18.

MusicChick 09.03.2020 10:49

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3155835)
Question for those more familiar with the topic: if the child has a Swiss passport, and his biological father is not involved in his upbringing, wouldn't the non-resident mother get any sort of immigration leniency to allow her to stay temporarily? I understand that the boy has an irrefutable right to stay, and has only 1 involved parent. The state could either choose to support the boy and put him through foster care, or for the welfare of the child provide a permit for the mother (e.g. an S Permit) and Sozialhilfe until he turns 18.

I think there could be leniency if the mom shows that she does everything to sustain herself, short and long term. There are also ways for the father to be made aware of his parental duties. Good luck OP, to you and to your baby xo

Caleb 09.03.2020 11:24

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3155877)
I think there could be leniency if the mom shows that she does everything to sustain herself, short and long term. There are also ways for the father to be made aware of his parental duties. Good luck OP, to you and to your baby xo

The state should either give the mother the benefit of the doubt first, and give her an opportunity to legally make a living, or simply say "no" from the get go. I wonder if the regulations in place are so clear-cut, or there's leeway for the immigration officers to make judgment calls.

MusicChick 09.03.2020 11:35

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3155897)
The state should either give the mother the benefit of the doubt first, and give her an opportunity to legally make a living, or simply say "no" from the get go. I wonder if the regulations in place are so clear-cut, or there's leeway for the immigration officers to make judgment calls.

I think there's always a leeway. But we are hearing from her now when her time us up. The officers will look into her efforts of past months (job search, integration, language, how the child does in school socialisation-wise, etc.), I think. I hope she and her child can get something figured out, a job pre-contract, etc.

Luna 12.03.2020 16:17

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
My son is since born register in the Swiss embassy with passaport and all regular, he born in Brazil but his father whent there and did all .
So I have all the document, contract of work, integration letter, many friend wrote to the immigration, we didint live in Brazil and I don’t came here to ask for social help, I have a hotel in Brazil and I can prove incomes I have bank statements very good and many documents proving my financial autonomy his father also pay for the child every month etc..
In the begging the immigration thing would be ok , but then When the imigration contact his father and him declined the interest in participate of the life is the son , the immigration told have a very old law that say when have no contact can’t give the permit to the mother stay with the child.
I don’t see no logic in send my son to foster house because I always erase my son and I have capacity for this, we came from Greece Here, and I have applied for a permit before I came to life in Fällanden the problem is when I came I had to change the adress and the canton , so the ask of the imigration start again because is separate.
My son is already 3 weeks in the School making an intensive German .

doropfiz 12.03.2020 16:36

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
I'm sorry you are in this situation.

You have to be very clear in your mind that there are two separate cases here: your son, and you. As a mother, it is natural for you to feel that your-life-and-your-son's-life are one unit, to feel that you can live where he lives and he can live where you live. That feels obvious. But it is not, by law.

In the following posts, I will try to set out the situation as I understand it.

doropfiz 12.03.2020 16:36

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
This post is about your son's status.

He is Swiss. Therefore, he can ALWAYS live in Switzerland, and no-one can ever stop him from doing so.

He is a minor. Therefore, he ALWAYS has to have parental authority over him. Or, if the parents are not there for him, then he will be given government authority over him. This will go through the KESB (Swiss government child protection agency).

If the father does not want to care for the boy, he can ALWAYS refuse. The Swiss government might find ways to make the father pay for the boy. But they cannot make him see his son, they cannot force him to take an interest in him, and there is no way at all to make the man care for the boy, if that man does not want to do so.

While you, as mother, are in Switzerland, and the boy is in Switzerland, you have the parental authority.

If you leave Switzerland because
  • because you choose to, OR
  • because the Swiss government will not give you a permit to stay,
and if you then leave your son in Switzerland,
then the KESB will arrange a foster family for him, or put him in a children's home.

You could choose to take the boy with you, back to Greece or Brazil.
However, be aware that
  • if the father does not give permission for you to remove the boy from Switzerland,
you will HAVE TO leave the boy here.

One might ask: Why would a father, who does not want to see his son, prevent the son from leaving Switzerland?

This is done, sometimes, by a father who knows that the Swiss systems will take care of the child.

In particular, if the father is Swiss and living in Switzerland and does not have a lot of money
  • perhaps has a Disability Pension and needs top-up benefits, or
  • perhaps lives from the Swiss Social Security,
it be financially better, for the father, if he lets the Swiss government pay for the foster family or the children's home.

This can be cheaper, for the father, than having to send money for the child, each month.

doropfiz 12.03.2020 17:05

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
This post is about your your status.

The Swiss government distinguishes between
  • Swiss
  • EU and
  • non-EU.

You are non-EU.

They also distinguish between people who are living abroad, and people who are already living here.

Do you have a current Swiss permit to be here?
If yes, do you still have some time before it expires?
If not, what is your current Swiss status?


The Swiss government - in looking at your application to be allowed to stay here - does NOT consider "I am the mother of the boy!" as a primary reason to let you stay here.

The big, big, big questions of the Swiss immigration authorities are:
  1. Do you have a criminal record?
  2. Can you show that you will not need to claim Swiss social security benefits?

Factors that are regarded to show that you are financially autonomous and are likely to integrate into Switzerland include:
1. proof that you earn enough to support yourself (and possibly also your son) with
  • an employment contract for a permanent job, OR
  • many employment contracts for smaller part-time or temporary jobs which add up, OR somtimes also accepted:
  • many efforts made on your part to find work and to prove that you are very likely to find work (one of these is education, another is learning the local Swiss language).

2. proof that you have already made progress in learning the local language, since your arrival, and that you are taking a German course, and speaking German to people here whom you already know

3. proof that you have taken the necessary steps to get your son into school, including your contacts with school-teachers, and a letter from the school

4. proof of stable accommodation, i.e. a
rental contract for yourself and your son

5. your papers in good order, with all the correspondence with the Swiss authorities. You must reply to every letter they give you... even if your reply is only "I have received your letter and am trying to collect the information you have asked of me, and will reply soon."

doropfiz 12.03.2020 17:42

Re: Swiss Child being kicked out of the country because the father rejects his respon
 
Hi again Luna

Please have another look at my lists of questions (from posts 4 and 5 above), repeated here.

I have tried to insert the answers, as I understand them from you. Have I understood correctly? Please correct or add information. Thank you.

FIRST LIST OF QUESTIONS
1. Do you and your son have a safe place to stay now?
Yes.

2. Did you succeed in getting your son into school, or not?
Yes. He is learning German in an intensive course. Good!

3. If he is still not in school, who told you, and where, that he could not go to school?
If he is a Swiss citizen, properly registered, he is allowed to stay in Switzerland and he must go to school.
Yes, answered in 2. above.

4. Do you have a proper visa or permit to be in Switzerland? For how long?

5. Do you have any letters from the Migration Authorities? If so, it is very important to respond to them.



SECOND LIST OF QUESTIONS

1. Did the Swiss man (your child's father) help you (and the boy) to come to Switzerland?

2. Is there any legal document (like a Court Order) which proves that he has a legal obligation to pay the child (and you support)?

3. If there is, or if there isn't such a document, did he used to send you money to support the child (and you) while you were living in Brazil?
Yes, he sent money each month. But we were in Greece, not Brazil.

4. Is he giving you any money now?

5. Is the Swiss man registered as living in Switzerland and does he have a home here?

6. Since you have been in Switzerland, have you seen him, and has the boy seen his father?


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