Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #261  
Old 03.09.2020, 14:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,792
Groaned at 173 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 8,169 Times in 2,769 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Compliance with containment measures to the COVID-19 pandemic over time: Do antisocial traits matter?

Quote:
Our findings indicated that antisocial traits, especially lower levels of empathy and higher levels of Callousness and Risk-taking, are directly associated with compliance with containment measures. These traits explain, at least partially, the reason why people continue not adhering to the containment measures even with the increasing numbers of cases and deaths. Exposing oneself and others to risk, even when it can be avoided, is a typical trait for people with antisocial tendencies (e.g., Krasnova et al., 2019; Yu et al., 2012), and with low levels of empathy (Mariano et al., 2016; Van Langen et al., 2014).
(De Francisco Carvalho, Pianowski & Gonçalves, 2020)
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Kittster for this useful post:
  #262  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:11
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,361
Groaned at 499 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 3,378 Times in 1,455 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
Tony, I am quite confident you're terribly mistaken. Masks have been deemed by the WHO and gazillions of professionals to be effective. Very effective given that they have no inherent side effects (other than the environmental issue that you pointed out later). Proven efficacy of masks dates back to the great Manchurian Plague, over 100 years ago (granted it was due to a bacteria, which is a few times but not dramatically larger than the COVID-19 virus). Same thing with the Spanish Flu. I don't know where the claims about the lack of efficacy come from, but they are very unlikely to come from professionals. I would bet my bottom-rappen that they are factoids created by ignorant folk who spread their fears and prejudices online, which is the only place where they'd echo. For anyone who'd rather heed the advice of ignorant, anonymous conspiracy-theorists over health professionals, there's no rational argument worth engaging in.
This isn't true! Read the original advice on masks, nothing has changed since then! There has been no conclusive studies between April and now when this advice was released. The change of advice is based purely on politics and not science.

Quote:
However, there is currently no evidence that wearing a mask (whether medical or other types) by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19.
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...=1&isAllowed=y

Quote:
View Post
That's not correct. I hear quite a few people repeating it. That doesn't make it any more true.

Edit: just googled a few quite reliable sources for statements in favour of masks, which come from regular public institutions, i.e. Mayo Clinic, University of Maryland, Cleveland Clinic, and Johns Hopkins.
It is, that's the point! Read the advice from the WHO, they have said that there is only, and I quote:

Quote:
At the present time, the widespread use of masks everywhere is not supported by high-quality scientific evidence
https://www.who.int/emergencies/dise...d-19-and-masks
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:15
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,361
Groaned at 499 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 3,378 Times in 1,455 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Who would have thought this, plastic and perspex visors could INCREASE the risk of Covid transmission according to a study

Now just wait for the study that says the same about cloth masks and masks worn incorrectly, followed up by the study that says mass wearing of masks by the general public has had zero effect in halting the spread of the coronavirus...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...finds-12062704
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #264  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:25
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 15,770
Groaned at 522 Times in 414 Posts
Thanked 23,268 Times in 9,400 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
Who would have thought this, plastic and perspex visors could INCREASE the risk of Covid transmission according to a study
I mentioned that on this forum at least a couple of weeks ago. Do keep up.

Can you not appreciate that as data comes in, and scientific knowledge increases, policy will change?
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #265  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:33
Sean Connery's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,562
Groaned at 58 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 7,547 Times in 3,386 Posts
Sean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

I've always thought the plastic shields were useless - bar in the case someone sneezes on you from 10cm away. The rest of the time it just traps air around your face.

I am also worried that masks will lead to the spread of the virus. Those who pull it down onto their chin, uncover their nose, hang it on the rear view mirrir of the car or (shudder) wear it on their elbow are just plain daft.
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:58
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,099
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,950 Times in 764 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
This isn't true! Read the original advice on masks, nothing has changed since then! There has been no conclusive studies between April and now when this advice was released. The change of advice is based purely on politics and not science.
I disagree that the advice is based on politics, nor do I see any reason to believe it would be the case; I believe it's based on the best available data and understanding of type and kind of transmission at any point in time. I understand the recommendation from the WHO and local authorities is adjusted regularly based on improved understanding of the situation.

I DID read the WHO Q&A, the outdated document you linked, and also its updated version from June 5. In all three cases, the WHO recommends the usage of masks in general terms, with some caveats. It IS necessary to say that masks, as one component of preventing infection, helps, but don't work on their own. This is common, accurate and thorough scientific writing. Call it pedantic, but it's the only way to be as precise as possible.

The only case in which the WHO doesn't have a blanket recommendation for masks is the usage of fabric masks for the general public where there's no widespread community transmission, as they say their efficacy is not supported by high-quality scientific data (probably because it's so difficult to do a randomized double-blinded study for contagion). They do say in the same sentence that

Quote:
"However, there are some settings in which it may not be possible to keep physical distancing and the use of a mask could be helpful to provide a barrier to limit the spread of potentially infectious droplets from someone who is infected. In addition, there is some evidence which suggests that some infected people without showing symptoms may be able to transmit the virus others.

For this reason, WHO advises that governments should encourage the use of even non-medical fabric masks, which can act as a barrier to prevent the spread of the virus from the wearer to others where there are many cases of COVID-19, for people in the general public where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible – such as, on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments."
This was a direct copy+paste from the document you linked. The BOLD is mine

Please READ what you recommend to others and what you base your own wrong conclusions on. You're getting it all backwards. Let me copy paste from the documents YOU linked:
__________________
HEAVEN IS A BATHTUB WITH BOOKS THAT DON'T GET WET

Last edited by Caleb; 04.09.2020 at 11:09.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #267  
Old 04.09.2020, 11:09
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,361
Groaned at 499 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 3,378 Times in 1,455 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
I disagree that the advice is based on politics, nor do I see any reason to believe it would be the case; I believe it's based on the best available data and understanding of type and kind of transmission at any point in time. I understand the recommendation from the WHO and local authorities is adjusted regularly based on improved understanding of the situation.

I DID read the WHO Q&A, the outdated document you linked, and also its updated version from June 5. In all three cases, the WHO recommends the usage of masks in general terms, with some caveats. This is common, accurate and thorough scientific writing. Call it pedantic, but it's the only way to be as precise as possible. It IS necessary to say that masks, as one component of preventing infection, helps, but doesn't work on its own.

The only case in which the WHO doesn't have a blanket recommendation for masks is the usage of fabric masks for the general public where there's no widespread community transmission, as they say their efficacy is not supported by high-quality scientific data (probably because it's so difficult to do a randomized double-blinded study for contagion). They do say in the same sentence that



This was a direct copy+paste from the document you linked. The italic and BOLD is mine

Please READ what you recommend to others and what you base your own wrong conclusions on. You're getting it all backwards. Let me copy paste from the documents YOU linked:
I have read the entire thing, including what you've put in bold. Do you not see the issue with using words like "can", it infers possibility? The reason they have to use the word is because the science is lacking. It was lacking in April and it is lacking now. It's most certainly lacking in mass usage by the general public.

Just as there is little to no discernible correlation between lockdowns and slowing the spread of covid, I expect the same to be true for wearing face masks.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at TonyClifton for this post:
  #268  
Old 04.09.2020, 11:17
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,099
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,950 Times in 764 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
I have read the entire thing, including what you've put in bold. Do you not see the issue with using words like "can", it infers possibility? The reason they have to use the word is because the science is lacking. It was lacking in April and it is lacking now. It's most certainly lacking in mass usage by the general public.

Just as there is little to no discernible correlation between lockdowns and slowing the spread of covid, I expect the same to be true for wearing face masks.
I partly agree with you regarding the lack of correlation between SOME lockdowns and slowing the spread of the virus (e.g. Argentina), in spite of what common sense would dictate. The evidence in Switzerland runs contrary to it though (there seems to have been a huge correlation). There's a lot of variation in the scope, depth, enforcement and whatnot around lockdowns throughout the world. They can't be described as a monolothic concept, so I wouldn't measure all lockdowns in the same way.

But I read something completely different regarding "words like can". I read not just "possibility" but "probability". I come from a hard science background. I have 6 published papers in peer-reviewed journals, and in my formative years I learned that unless something is accurately and thoroughly measured and reproducible, one should always say "can", "may", "likely" and "expected". Even when everything points out or seems to point out causality.
__________________
HEAVEN IS A BATHTUB WITH BOOKS THAT DON'T GET WET
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #269  
Old 04.09.2020, 16:34
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 5,112
Groaned at 122 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 7,770 Times in 2,880 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

ZZZZZzzzzzzz.....

Quote:
View Post
This isn't true! Read the original advice on masks, nothing has changed since then! There has been no conclusive studies between April and now when this advice was released. The change of advice is based purely on politics and not science.



https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...=1&isAllowed=y



It is, that's the point! Read the advice from the WHO, they have said that there is only, and I quote:



https://www.who.int/emergencies/dise...d-19-and-masks
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:06
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 36
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Leonor has no particular reputation at present
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
Hi all!

Just curious to see how folk feel about the above on public transport?

Do you a) give out dirty looks and continue to do so until they leave the bus/tram etc. b) confront them? or just ignore them?
I ask this as I have just travelled home with six of these selfish buggers and I'm personally sick of the self entitled few who think they are exempt from the rule.
If the ZVV,SBB,ZSG want people wearing masks on the public transport why are they not doing more to enforce it?

I tell them. As far as I know they may have forgotten (I've forgotten in the beginning ). So far I've only gotten fake smiles, but they do put on their masks (which are usually on their chins).

Then there's the people who have the mask on, but their noses are not covered... From those, I simply move away.


"After watching how some people wear their masks, I start to understand why contraception fails."
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Leonor for this useful post:
  #271  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:11
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,003
Groaned at 450 Times in 344 Posts
Thanked 22,289 Times in 11,535 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Get used to orders it's for you own safety.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #272  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:17
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,366
Groaned at 346 Times in 185 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 714 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
Get used to orders it's for you own safety.
In a way we should consider ourselves lucky, this pandemic could have been about a stomach virus and we would have to wear nappies at all times
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,289
Groaned at 294 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 18,985 Times in 6,619 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
Get used to orders it's for you own safety.

You can do better than that.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:36
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,143
Groaned at 87 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 18,853 Times in 8,394 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
In a way we should consider ourselves lucky, this pandemic could have been about a stomach virus and we would have to wear nappies at all times
There's how you find the silver lining of a pandemic!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #275  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:45
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
Get used to orders it's for you own safety.
Indeed, this mask-wearing thing is DIRECTLY analagous with the extermination of the Jews in Nazi-controlled Europe.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank for this useful post:
This user groans at for this post:
  #276  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Today I have seen people wearing the masks even in the forest! (OK, only 2-3 persons but still)


I like the fact that people started to comply with the mask wearing rule but I think some of them are taking it a bit too far...
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 16.10.2020, 19:55
Talk to you later's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,343
Groaned at 55 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,500 Times in 917 Posts
Talk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Breaking News- People caught without masks in Zurich will be rounded up and put in prison. They will later be taken out and used during Sechseläuten
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Talk to you later for this useful post:
  #278  
Old 16.10.2020, 20:14
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Quote:
View Post
Get used to orders it's for you own safety.
What do you propose? I understand it's for my own safety and for the safety of other people too. Since I don't want a second lockdown, this is a really small price to pay. What is all this fuss about?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #279  
Old 16.10.2020, 20:45
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 4,668
Groaned at 255 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 9,610 Times in 3,609 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

I had to go to our neighborhood Migros this evening, which is a small-ish store, and one of the workers in there was not wearing a mask, as usual (I never see her wear a mask in there anymore). She was walking around coughing all over the place. And it was that deep kind of cough, like you know something is not right.

Does anyone know why some workers in the grocery stores do not have to wear masks right now?
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 16.10.2020, 20:47
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 1,914
Groaned at 257 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 2,108 Times in 1,040 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mask dodgers

Really, I would have asked to see the Manager.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JackieH for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How is wearing the mask rule followed in your canton? McTAVGE Daily life 57 01.08.2020 19:55
National Register of Fare Dodgers Medea Fleecestealer Transportation/driving 5 12.02.2018 22:33
where can i buy skimary mummy mask fondfawn Daily life 7 03.02.2014 16:41
Brits are soap dodgers. simon_ch International affairs/politics 38 15.08.2009 10:49


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0