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Old 18.10.2020, 00:03
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Re: Mask dodgers

Just say them you had Covid+
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  #302  
Old 18.10.2020, 10:02
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Re: Mask dodgers

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You might be right or you might be wrong, we will know once the crisis is over and careful analysis is done.

For now I will disagree with "if brings nothing" argument. If there is a chance that some measure reduces transmission risk AND this measure is as simple and unobtrusive as wearing a mask then it should be done.
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I think it's selfish and ignorant to not wear a mask. Obviously this isn't going to just go away so we need to take sensible precautions. Those people are not sensible and are increasing the potential that things get much, much worse before they get better.
Wearing a mask isnít a sensible precaution. Itís a knee jerk reaction that lures people into a false sense of security and makes them believe itís making a difference.

30,000 infection a day in France where masks have been mandatory in all indoor settings and on public transport for months. What do we suppose the infection rate would be without masks? 31,000? 29,000? A look a Aargau or Sweden will give you the answer.
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Old 18.10.2020, 10:12
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Re: Mask dodgers

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things get much, much worse before they get better.
This was never in doubt.

Tom
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Old 18.10.2020, 10:21
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Re: Mask dodgers

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30,000 infection a day in France where masks have been mandatory in all indoor settings and on public transport for months. What do we suppose the infection rate would be without masks? 31,000? 29,000? A look a Aargau or Sweden will give you the answer.
Why not look at Kanton Schwyz instead of Aargau?

Cherry-picking data to suit your arguments is a pretty lame way of trying to prove your points.

Can you leave Sweden out of it for the moment? - It's been discussed many times that Sweden, geographically, is a rather special case and shouldn't be used as a representative example.
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Old 18.10.2020, 10:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

Sweden might soon implement local lock downs.
https://www.20min.ch/story/schweden-...s-229967734323
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  #306  
Old 18.10.2020, 10:37
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Re: Mask dodgers

Nuff said

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Old 18.10.2020, 10:38
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Re: Mask dodgers

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You might be right or you might be wrong, we will know once the crisis is over and careful analysis is done.


For now I will disagree with "if brings nothing" argument. If there is a chance that some measure reduces transmission risk AND this measure is as simple and unobtrusive as wearing a mask then it should be done.
Wearing a helmet at all times should reduce transmission risk. Well, there's a chance that it could. Are you going to wear a helmet at all times on the chance that this unobtrusive measure could help?
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Old 18.10.2020, 11:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I still prefer a hug. Maybe it's just a matter of what you're use to... a cultural thing. But I have noticed before that Swiss friends often like to give me a hug instead of doing the kiss-kiss-kiss thing. I remember I once accidentally ended up kissing my best friend's husband on the neck while doing that, because he had moved his head. Oops.
Haha, embarrassing, I have heard it before, but it's nothing to be hiding under a rock...accidents can happen, especially to people who're not used to these customs. I look people in the eye so it's easier to keep the right direction. If you act clumsily because you just want to get over this kiss-kiss-kiss thing, then better limit the greeting "ritual" to a simple hug. Nobody will be upset. People get it that it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Anyway, as you said it almost feels like a thing of the past lately...
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Old 18.10.2020, 16:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Wearing a helmet at all times should reduce transmission risk. Well, there's a chance that it could. Are you going to wear a helmet at all times on the chance that this unobtrusive measure could help?

Yes, I would.

We are in the airplane that is about to crash land, we all need to assume proper positions (although one could argue that this is useless). Bergamo v2.0 is coming very soon across Europe, thousands dying daily a horrible and lonely death, overloaded hospitals, transport of corpses at night with military trucks etc.

Anyone who is bit*ching about "violated personal freedoms" and refusing to follow common rules is on the same level as those who would leave light on during blackouts in London during WW2: selfish, arrogant and plainly dumb.

We are at war and invisible enemy is already here, among us, raising the sword for a strike. Next months would be very, very tough and costly. The level of suffering will partly depend on us, our behavior, solidarity and ability to overcome egoism / show compassion.

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  #310  
Old 18.10.2020, 21:50
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Why not look at Kanton Schwyz instead of Aargau?

Cherry-picking data to suit your arguments is a pretty lame way of trying to prove your points.

Can you leave Sweden out of it for the moment? - It's been discussed many times that Sweden, geographically, is a rather special case and shouldn't be used as a representative example.
Shall we look at some of the other Cantons then? The ones that were the last to impose mandatory masks or that never bothered at all?

Basel Land, Bern Schaffhausen, Thurgau, Luzern, Glarus all with Covid infection rates currently below the Swiss average.

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Yes, I would.

We are in the airplane that is about to crash land, we all need to assume proper positions (although one could argue that this is useless). Bergamo v2.0 is coming very soon across Europe, thousands dying daily a horrible and lonely death, overloaded hospitals, transport of corpses at night with military trucks etc.

Anyone who is bit*ching about "violated personal freedoms" and refusing to follow common rules is on the same level as those who would leave light on during blackouts in London during WW2: selfish, arrogant and plainly dumb.

We are at war and invisible enemy is already here, among us, raising the sword for a strike. Next months would be very, very tough and costly. The level of suffering will partly depend on us, our behavior, solidarity and ability to overcome egoism / show compassion.
It's tragic that there are so many people out there that believe this.
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  #311  
Old 18.10.2020, 21:57
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Shall we look at some of the other Cantons then? The ones that were the last to impose mandatory masks or that never bothered at all?

Basel Land, Bern Schaffhausen, Thurgau, Luzern, Glarus all with Covid infection rates currently below the Swiss average.



It's tragic that there are so many people out there that believe this.
You seem to be mixing up cause and effect.

It may well be that wearing masks isn't very effective, although most of the analysis I've read suggests it has some positive effect.

But I haven't seen anything suggesting that wearing them increases the rate of transmission, so why do you suggest that there could be less infections without them.

Also - mask wearing has been made compulsory in places with high infection rates, in line with the idea of reducing spread with minimum government intervention. So quoting a bunch of places that have low rates as a case for not having masks is most likely just jumping the gun.
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Old 18.10.2020, 22:06
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Re: Mask dodgers

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You seem to be mixing up cause and effect.

It may well be that wearing masks isn't very effective, although most of the analysis I've read suggests it has some positive effect.

But I haven't seen anything suggesting that wearing them increases the rate of transmission, so why do you suggest that there could be less infections without them.

Also - mask wearing has been made compulsory in places with high infection rates, in line with the idea of reducing spread with minimum government intervention. So quoting a bunch of places that have low rates as a case for not having masks is most likely just jumping the gun.
I'm not mixing up cause and effect, I'm saying masks have no effect. Masks were introduced across much of Europe when the infection rates were very low. Since then they've exploded, all the while with people wearing masks. Look at the countries that never implemented mandatory masks, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Latvia, Croatia, Iceland, Latvia, Finland, there's no real difference between the infection rates in these countries and the rest of Europe. If anything, it's less!

Last edited by TonyClifton; 18.10.2020 at 22:17.
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Old 18.10.2020, 22:09
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I'm not mixing up cause and effect, I'm saying masks have no effect. Masks were introduced across much of Europe when the infection rates were very low. Since then they've exploded, all the while with people wearing masks. Look at the countries that never implemented mandatory masks, Denmark, Norwa, Sweden, Latvia, Croatia, Iceland, Latvia, Finland, there's no real difference between the infection rates in these countries and the rest of Europe. If anything, it's less!
So where you suggested France could have had a different number of cases if masks hadn't been mandatory, that wasn't an effect?

That's either odd, or just irrelevant.
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Old 18.10.2020, 22:14
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So where you suggested France could have had a different number of cases if masks hadn't been mandatory, that wasn't an effect?

That's either odd, or just irrelevant.
Perhaps I could have been clearer, I just used France as an example because they brought in mandatory masks with a low infection rate and now have 30,000 a day with masks. I'm just wondering what people honestly think the number would be without masks?

I think there is a chance that masks are exacerbating infection. The way people wear them, handle them, reuse them. I believe they could just be ensuring transfer of the virus from your mouth to your hands.
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Old 18.10.2020, 22:18
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I think there is a chance that masks are exacerbating infection. The way people wear them, handle them, reuse them. I believe they could just be ensuring transfer of the virus from your mouth to your hands.
True, that's entirely possible, although I think you mean the other way (hands to mouth)?

But that's not really the point - the goal is more to stop infectious people spreading the virus before they have symptoms, because it helps stop aerosols infecting the air in enclosed spaces and shared surfaces like handles.

Also why I agree with your other points about masks outside being pointless, unless in a crowd which is better to simply avoid.
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Old 18.10.2020, 23:01
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Perhaps I could have been clearer, I just used France as an example because they brought in mandatory masks with a low infection rate and now have 30,000 a day with masks. I'm just wondering what people honestly think the number would be without masks?

I think there is a chance that masks are exacerbating infection. The way people wear them, handle them, reuse them. I believe they could just be ensuring transfer of the virus from your mouth to your hands.
If you were standing a few feet away from someone who has the virus and they coughed or sneezed, would you seriously prefer that they weren't wearing a mask? How about if they were standing a few feet away from your elderly parent?

Also, an increase in infection rates in areas where masks are mandatory in no way means that those rates wouldn't be even higher if people were NOT wearing masks.
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Old 19.10.2020, 07:46
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Re: Mask dodgers

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If you were standing a few feet away from someone who has the virus and they coughed or sneezed, would you seriously prefer that they weren't wearing a mask? How about if they were standing a few feet away from your elderly parent?
It's rather the point, for the past 8 months I've been spending very little time standing close to anyone because I observe social distancing. People who are coughing and sneezing should be in quarantine regardless too! These measures should be sufficient if people observe them, face masks are just security blankets that make no difference.
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Old 19.10.2020, 08:08
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People who are coughing and sneezing should be in quarantine regardless too!
There I would agree with you, but...

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These measures should be sufficient if people observe them, face masks are just security blankets that make no difference.
The trouble is most infections are happening BEFORE people show symptoms.

A properly functioning track and trace would answer that by forcing exposed people into quarantine and/or testing but so far only a handful of mainly Asian countries have actually managed to get that to work.
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Old 19.10.2020, 10:09
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Re: Mask dodgers

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It's rather the point, for the past 8 months I've been spending very little time standing close to anyone because I observe social distancing.
Nice that you can. There are many occupations where that just isn't possible.

What do you suggest these people do instead of wearing masks?
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Old 19.10.2020, 10:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

As a ZŁrich politician said ď masks are more symbolic than anything elseď
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