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  #321  
Old 19.10.2020, 10:39
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Re: Mask dodgers

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As a Zürich politician said “ masks are more symbolic than anything else“
Mind sharing his scientific or medical qualifications with us?
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  #322  
Old 19.10.2020, 23:05
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Re: Mask dodgers

A little levity to the mask “debate”

https://youtu.be/ltjBT_TuUVA
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  #323  
Old 20.10.2020, 02:18
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Wearing a mask isn’t a sensible precaution. It’s a knee jerk reaction that lures people into a false sense of security and makes them believe it’s making a difference.

30,000 infection a day in France where masks have been mandatory in all indoor settings and on public transport for months. What do we suppose the infection rate would be without masks? 31,000? 29,000? A look a Aargau or Sweden will give you the answer.
The problem in France is not the false sense of security, is that people don't use them in all their interactions. This is what's happening in other countries like Spain, where people are mingling with family members and friends with no masks on.

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I'm not mixing up cause and effect, I'm saying masks have no effect. Masks were introduced across much of Europe when the infection rates were very low. Since then they've exploded, all the while with people wearing masks. Look at the countries that never implemented mandatory masks, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Latvia, Croatia, Iceland, Latvia, Finland, there's no real difference between the infection rates in these countries and the rest of Europe. If anything, it's less!
But you only know what you observe, which is that the number of cases is increasing as people are told to wear masks. This assumes that there is effective compliance, but most important, you are drawing a conclusion from a simple raw observation. What you can't tell from looking at raw data like this is whether masks really are ineffective, or whether the number of cases would have exploded even more without wearing masks and, therefore, masks are in fact being very useful despite the alarming figures. That is why we need scientific evidence, and the evidence points out to masks being indeed very useful to stop the propagation of the virus if used correctly, systematically, and consistently.

Last edited by roegner; 20.10.2020 at 06:12. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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  #324  
Old 20.10.2020, 10:35
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Mind sharing his scientific or medical qualifications with us?
Well Corine Mauch said it . Amongst other things

https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/z%C3%B...d-fuer-zuerich

“We must remain vigilant and careful. In this respect, the mask also has a symbolic meaning. It makes the presence of the virus visible, ”said Mauch.

I think its more a symbol of the environmental degredation that characterizes the present day life
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  #325  
Old 20.10.2020, 10:46
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Re: Mask dodgers

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“We must remain vigilant and careful. In this respect, the mask also has a symbolic meaning. It makes the presence of the virus visible, ”said Mauch.
In your last post you quoted her as saying:


Quote:
masks are more symbolic than anything else


That's not what she said at all and does not have the same meaning as:

Quote:
We must remain vigilant and careful. In this respect, the mask also has a symbolic meaning.


which you have now written as what she actually said.

Have you also trained at the Tony Clifton School of Quotes?
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  #326  
Old 20.10.2020, 10:53
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Re: Mask dodgers

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In your last post you quoted her as saying:




That's not what she said at all and does not have the same meaning as:



which you have now written as what she actually said.

Have you also trained at the Tony Clifton School of Quotes?
From the article:

Wir müssen wachsam und vorsichtig bleiben. Insofern hat die Maske auch eine symbolische Bedeutung. Sie macht die Präsenz des Virus sichtbar», sagte Mauch.

And the google translator was used to translate her words. Dont blame me
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Old 20.10.2020, 10:56
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Re: Mask dodgers

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From the article:

Wir müssen wachsam und vorsichtig bleiben. Insofern hat die Maske auch eine symbolische Bedeutung. Sie macht die Präsenz des Virus sichtbar», sagte Mauch.

And the google translator was used to translate her words. Dont blame me
Which is what you did in your second post. The key word is you omitted the first time round is "also".

I think she's right.
Seeing people wearing mask is hopefully a reminder for people that the virus is all around, to be careful and to maintain hygiene and social distancing (my words).
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  #328  
Old 20.10.2020, 11:27
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Re: Mask dodgers

The photo says it all
Name:  img_1603185827751.JPEG
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Size:  194.6 KB
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  #329  
Old 20.10.2020, 11:35
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Nice that you can. There are many occupations where that just isn't possible.

What do you suggest these people do instead of wearing masks?
Well they can wear masks if it makes them feel better, but the reality is, they're not really helping. Just look at the number of outbreaks in food processing plants, have you seen the amount of PPE those workers have to wear? There was an outbreak at a food processing plant in Cornwall a few weeks ago, 150 odd workers were all infected with the virus. Ironically, if I recall, none of the knew they had it or showed any symptoms.

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True, that's entirely possible, although I think you mean the other way (hands to mouth)?

But that's not really the point - the goal is more to stop infectious people spreading the virus before they have symptoms, because it helps stop aerosols infecting the air in enclosed spaces and shared surfaces like handles.

Also why I agree with your other points about masks outside being pointless, unless in a crowd which is better to simply avoid.
Here's a couple of short videos from Dr Jenny Harries Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England, explaining the problem with masks earlier on in the year.

(there were a lot more, and it took me a long time to find these videos because big tech companies are removing them)

https://twitter.com/GMB/status/1253243963701694465
https://twitter.com/MrSteerpike/stat...89658847301632
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  #330  
Old 20.10.2020, 11:47
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Re: Mask dodgers

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The photo says it all
Attachment 140486

I'd never take advice or tips from someone who cannot produce clear photos with a phone. We're not on 2010 anymore
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  #331  
Old 20.10.2020, 13:46
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Re: Mask dodgers

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The photo says it all
Interesting, I haven't seen this warning on any box of masks I've bought so far..

I think it should have been clear by now that it's a combination of measures that should be followed, nobody said masks alone are infallible.
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  #332  
Old 20.10.2020, 13:51
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Interesting, I haven't seen this warning on any box of masks I've bought so far..

It looks like something for the U.S. market - a 'get out clause' in case someone wears these masks, catches COVID-19 and then tries to sue the mask supplier.

Rather like a packet of nuts with the warning label - 'may contain nuts'.
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  #333  
Old 20.10.2020, 13:53
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I think it should have been clear by now that it's a combination of measures that should be followed, nobody said masks alone are infallible.
As someone who has commuted by train and worked in open close spaces for awhile now, I can say that most people don't have manners and refuse to cover their mouths when sneezing or coughing. (They somehow think doing so over their shoulder is hygienic/polite.) Therefore I am very glad that masks are required as it is far better than nothing...

However, my work requires us to wear masks in the office. They think that this protects everyone and have required us to be in office until very recently. This is frustrating as they are not the end of virus transmission.
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  #334  
Old 20.10.2020, 13:56
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Interesting, I haven't seen this warning on any box of masks I've bought so far..

I think it should have been clear by now that it's a combination of measures that should be followed, nobody said masks alone are infallible.
EXACTLY! Masks, in combination with the other sensible precautions of cleaning your hands regularly, not touching your eyes, nose and mouth, maintaining a sensible distance, covering your nose and mouth when you sneeze or cough will / could / should help mitigate spread and exposure.

None are perfect, whether in combo or isolation, but really don't take much effort to do to at least help.
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Old 20.10.2020, 14:01
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Re: Mask dodgers

Check out this excellent piece that systematically breaks down the ineffectiveness of masks. It's well worth your time to read it!!

https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/
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Old 20.10.2020, 14:08
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Re: Mask dodgers

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But you only know what you observe, which is that the number of cases is increasing as people are told to wear masks. This assumes that there is effective compliance, but most important, you are drawing a conclusion from a simple raw observation. What you can't tell from looking at raw data like this is whether masks really are ineffective, or whether the number of cases would have exploded even more without wearing masks and, therefore, masks are in fact being very useful despite the alarming figures. That is why we need scientific evidence, and the evidence points out to masks being indeed very useful to stop the propagation of the virus if used correctly, systematically, and consistently.
Yup. What would be good is to do some kind of controlled test. Give one group masks. Another told not to wear masks and a third give masks that look similar to normal masks but have been perforated to offer zero protection.

I'm guessing pushing the use of masks have little or no positive effect due to:

1. Focus being moved away from other measures such as social distancing, handwashing
2. Improper use of masks
3. People believing masks are a magical talisman that causes them to engage in riskier behaviour (esp. combined with #2) when wearing masks
4. Mandatory use of masks leading to protests which further spreads the virus

I would agree in a perfect world of perfect use of masks even if they don't work, there would be limited downside such as:

1. Environmental impact
2. Waste of resources that could be spent on other things (which potentially could save more lives if masks are truly ineffective)

Personally, I think they should have made lockdown and mask wearing voluntary with a strong message to do so. That way, those who are cautious will comply, those who are not will rapidly achieve herd immunity amoung the riskier population.
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Old 20.10.2020, 15:09
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Check out this excellent piece that systematically breaks down the ineffectiveness of masks. It's well worth your time to read it!!

https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/
Good read, I liked the introduction. I studied organic chemistry, too. Saying that this makes me an expert for viruses would be kind of a stretch
The author of this text does what most authors of corona sceptics articels do. Setting a nice, trustworthy baseline with scientific facts which no one could deny. And follow up with some questionable conclusions and deductions.
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  #338  
Old 20.10.2020, 15:40
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Check out this excellent piece that systematically breaks down the ineffectiveness of masks. It's well worth your time to read it!!

https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/
I found the value of that article exactly equalled the amount of time I spent reading it.
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Old 20.10.2020, 15:48
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Good read, I liked the introduction. I studied organic chemistry, too. Saying that this makes me an expert for viruses would be kind of a stretch
The author of this text does what most authors of corona sceptics articels do. Setting a nice, trustworthy baseline with scientific facts which no one could deny. And follow up with some questionable conclusions and deductions.
Care to give a few examples?

This article gives an insight into the science of why masks are ineffective. As I've always said this is very hard to prove either way. What's absolutely undeniable is on a macro-level they clearly aren't having the desired effect, if they were, countries wouldn't be locking down again and people wouldn't be asked to work from home.
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Old 20.10.2020, 15:58
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Re: Mask dodgers

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The photo says it all
Attachment 140486
Now read this

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...ve-stopping-a/

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The users sharing this image are making a false interpretation of the type of protection standard face masks provide. We rate it False.
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