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Old 20.10.2020, 16:59
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Check out this excellent piece that systematically breaks down the ineffectiveness of masks. It's well worth your time to read it!!

https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/

PhD or whatever but forgets to quantify the most important part of the text:


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  1. The virus is not somehow magically “glued” to the mask but can be expelled, whether or not there is still moisture. This can happen the next time a person breathes, speaks, coughs, sneezes, hisses, grunts, etc. So, the virus can be expelled out INTO THE ENVIRONMENT from the face covering.
So, the face covering acts as an intermediary in transmission. It can alter the timing of the virus getting into the environment, but it now acts as a contact source and airborne source; virus can still get into the environment. Since we know that the stability is good on most covering and mask materials, it does nothing to break down the virus until the covering is removed and either washed or discarded (appropriately).

Yes, expelled from the mask into the environment, but how much, what fraction? That is the important question the guy avoided. Assuming chemistry PhDs are not distracted idiots, the omission of the important question on several hundred word text cannot be accidental, the remaining option is acting on bad faith
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Old 20.10.2020, 17:17
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Care to give a few examples?
I probably should, yes.

My biggest concern isn't about the facts he postulates. While reading such articles I always get the gut feeling that somethings off or someone tries to manipulate my in a more or less subtle way. Thats why I stopped reading Weltwoche after Roger Köppel took over, even though I was a frequent reader before.

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Because of the modeler’s view, if we imprison people (“lockdown” – a term used in penal institutions when prisoners become unruly), cover their faces (“masking”), and keep them from doing what people do, i.e. socializing (“distancing”), we can stop the virus. This concept is what “wanna-be” dictators all over the world have embraced.
Not that sublimal right?


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Do not forget, the mechanics of these two viruses (CV/IF) are essentially the same so what works or doesn’t work for one is the same for the other.
As I said, I'm not an expert, but thats a very bold statement imho.

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Stopping humans from being human will not stop the virus from being a virus!
??? Who is doing that?

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The healthy people in our society should not be punished for being healthy, which is exactly what lockdowns, distancing, mask mandates, etc. do.
That may be his opinion (That measurements equals punishment). The strategy is simple:
Step 1: Deliver some hard facts in sequence and sprinkle some personal opinions in.
Step 2: Hope the reader doesn't notice.



On the factual side, I agree that a mask becomes loaded with virus particles over time. And yes, some of the will be released in the air and on surfaces (Thats why one is told to disinfect surfaces regularly).
In my opinion, the author doesn't take the reduced virus load enoug, I don't think he wrote anything about it at all in this context. (Later on I found something about it)

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We have lost the meaning of “Land of the Free, Home of the Brave” to “Land of the Imprisoned, Home of the Afraid.
Ohh poor americans and their delusion of grandeur.


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This article gives an insight into the science of why masks are ineffective. As I've always said this is very hard to prove either way. What's absolutely undeniable is on a macro-level they clearly aren't having the desired effect, if they were, countries wouldn't be locking down again and people wouldn't be asked to work from home.
Or if it weren't for masks, we would be already locked down again. As you said, hard to prove either way.

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  #343  
Old 20.10.2020, 17:26
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Rather like a packet of nuts with the warning label - 'may contain nuts'.
Good warning for EF these days ...
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  #344  
Old 20.10.2020, 19:31
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Good warning for EF these days ...
You joined after me and I can confirm "these days" is misleading
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  #345  
Old 20.10.2020, 19:41
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Re: Mask dodgers

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You joined after me and I can confirm "these days" is misleading
Interesting info from the local. Can I be fined for not wearing a mask in CH? https://www.thelocal.ch/20201020/can...in-switzerland

No fines for not wearing a mask. On the other hand, it's totally possible to:
  • ask passengers leave the train and the bus at the next stop if they refuse to wear a mask properly. So considerate, it's not kind to eject people from a moving vehicle
  • ask people to leave a mall, theater, restaurant if they refuse to wear a mask properly.
In both cases, if the person not wearing a mask does not leave the closed space or public transport, police can ensure the request to leave is followed. https://www.20min.ch/video/luzerner-...r-481357898756
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  #346  
Old 20.10.2020, 23:34
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Re: Mask dodgers

Plenty of mask dodgers about

Icing on the cake, I got into a confrontation today. Well, the tram driver did and I stepped in to aid the tram driver.
I am a bit scared now as the person might look for revenge. They come from a part of the world where honour is more important than common sense. I won't go into more detail for obvious reasons. I am really getting fed up with this world.
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  #347  
Old 23.10.2020, 13:52
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Re: Mask dodgers

masks tested with coronavirus on dummies:

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20201022_02/
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  #348  
Old 23.10.2020, 16:58
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Re: Mask dodgers

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masks tested with coronavirus on dummies:

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20201022_02/
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  #349  
Old 24.10.2020, 04:40
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Interesting info from the local. Can I be fined for not wearing a mask in CH? https://www.thelocal.ch/20201020/can...in-switzerland

No fines for not wearing a mask. On the other hand, it's totally possible to:
  • ask passengers leave the train and the bus at the next stop if they refuse to wear a mask properly. So considerate, it's not kind to eject people from a moving vehicle
  • ask people to leave a mall, theater, restaurant if they refuse to wear a mask properly.
In both cases, if the person not wearing a mask does not leave the closed space or public transport, police can ensure the request to leave is followed. https://www.20min.ch/video/luzerner-...r-481357898756
And when everyone gets off the bus/train feeling all smug...they remove their mask and walk down the street with no regard for distance rules.
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  #350  
Old 18.11.2020, 20:29
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Re: Mask dodgers

Today I was lost for words, when in a group of medium aged people at HB had no proper masks (everyone was either wearing a mask below a nose or not wearing at all), one woman pulled her half-worn mask down... to caught into a fist. I believe, that it was a very deep lung caught, if I ever heard one.
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  #351  
Old 19.11.2020, 11:16
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Today I was lost for words, when in a group of medium aged people at HB had no proper masks (everyone was either wearing a mask below a nose or not wearing at all), one woman pulled her half-worn mask down... to caught into a fist. I believe, that it was a very deep lung caught, if I ever heard one.
You should try to have more compassion for the “dodgers“

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  #352  
Old 19.11.2020, 12:29
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Re: Mask dodgers

interesting update (posting whole article for those without access)


https://www.thelocal.ch/20201118/swi...-mask-refusers


Switzerland’s Federal Council has just made it easier for police to fine someone for failing to wear a mask.


In its session on Wednesday, Switzerland’s Federal Council made a number of decisions related to the ongoing coronavirus pandemic.
In addition to making more funds available for businesses hit hard by the pandemic, the government also submitted changes to the Epidemics Act to make it easier for police to issue fines for minor violations of Switzerland’s mask requirement.
Previously, while there was the scope to issue fines, this would require court action. As a result, minor violations - such as the refusal of an individual to wear a mask - were not punished, the major focus on businesses who failed to enforce the mask requirement.
According to Swiss news outlet Watson: “Minor violations of the Epidemics Act such as violations of the obligation to wear a face mask should now be punishable with fines.”
In a press conference after the decision, Federal Council spokesman André Simonazzi said the goal was not to hand out thousands more fines.
“We had this possibility in spring (to issue fines), now we have created it again. But it is not the goal to issue many fines.”
Ueli Maurer added that making it easier to levy fines “helps” in the fight against the virus.
“We have to realise that things will only get better soon if we all stick to the measures. You can also fine people for demonstrations against the measures,” he said.
“You can protest and complain, but if we don't bring the numbers down, it won't work. Sometimes a fine can help.”

How much I be fined for not wearing a mask?
The government did not comment on the amount someone has to pay for so-called “minor” violations of the mask requirement.
Technically speaking, breaching the mask requirement can lead to a fine of up to CHF10,000 under the Epidemics Act - although whether such a fine will be levied against an individual remains to be seen.
Pursuant to the Act, violations of the mask requirement can result in fines of up to CHF10,000 - while negligent violations can be punished with fines of CHF5,000.
Prosecution will be conducted by the cantons but will need a complaint to be lodged by a shop or bar owner in order to start the process.
Michel Gerber, from the Federal Office of Public Health, said all punishments should be proportionate to the incident - implying that individuals are unlikely to receive such a high fine.
As reported by Swiss news outlet 20 Minutes, the higher fines are more likely to be levied against business owners and event organisers.
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  #353  
Old 19.11.2020, 13:16
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Re: Mask dodgers

As we know that wearing masks in the community doesn't significantly reduce the rates of infection, how can high fines be justified?
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  #354  
Old 19.11.2020, 13:50
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Re: Mask dodgers

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As we know that wearing masks in the community doesn't significantly reduce the rates of infection, how can high fines be justified?

There's at least one anti-mask, anti-vaccine, flat-earth nut-job on every forum - and on this one, you have that dubious accolade.
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Old 19.11.2020, 14:04
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Re: Mask dodgers

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There's at least one anti-mask, anti-vaccine, flat-earth nut-job on every forum - and on this one, you have that dubious accolade.
Resorting to insults doesn't validate your argument
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  #356  
Old 19.11.2020, 14:08
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Re: Mask dodgers

Btw Tony, do you really believe in flat Earth?
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Old 19.11.2020, 14:31
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Btw Tony, do you really believe in flat Earth?
No, of course not, it's just another lazy smear by such people who can't recognise nuance, and who don't understand the scientific process or debate.

I'm not anti-vax, but am sceptical of a vaccine that has been rushed into circulation, or a vaccine for a coronavirus when until now there has been so little success in vaccinating against coronaviruses. This is not anti-vaccine rather reasonable concerns to have, and to lump all people with such concerns together as "anti-vaxxers" is nonsensical.

The Royal Society was founded in 1660 with the motto nullius in verba which means "take nobody's word for it". This basically means that only through scientific dissent will hypotheses be replaced by better ones as the evidence presents itself. In the post-truth age in which we live, this fundamental part of science seems to have been forgotten.
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  #358  
Old 19.11.2020, 14:59
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Re: Mask dodgers

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The Royal Society was founded in 1660 with the motto nullius in verba which means "take nobody's word for it". This basically means that only through scientific dissent will hypotheses be replaced by better ones as the evidence presents itself. In the post-truth age in which we live, this fundamental part of science seems to have been forgotten.
Writes the person with the evangelical Christian Gideons association logo as an avatar...
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  #359  
Old 19.11.2020, 15:09
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Re: Mask dodgers

Tom, I would assume the majority here are believing in some sort of outlandish fairy tale so can't blame him alone.

I assume you, me and few others are in the minority here and the only ones who don't believe in fairy tales?
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Old 19.11.2020, 15:58
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Re: Mask dodgers

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No, of course not, it's just another lazy smear by such people who can't recognise nuance, and who don't understand the scientific process or debate.

I'm not anti-vax, but am sceptical of a vaccine that has been rushed into circulation, or a vaccine for a coronavirus when until now there has been so little success in vaccinating against coronaviruses. This is not anti-vaccine rather reasonable concerns to have, and to lump all people with such concerns together as "anti-vaxxers" is nonsensical.

The Royal Society was founded in 1660 with the motto nullius in verba which means "take nobody's word for it". This basically means that only through scientific dissent will hypotheses be replaced by better ones as the evidence presents itself. In the post-truth age in which we live, this fundamental part of science seems to have been forgotten.
I think this misses the point of the scientific method - it is not just dissent that moves science forward, but alternative verifiable hypotheses that replace ones which are incomplete or invalidated.

The problem in the "post-truth age" is that people see this discussion and claim that it proves previous scientific views are wrong, which is not correct unless and until a new, better idea is proven correct or the old old is proven incorrect.

On your point regarding masks, you use the term "significant" in a scientifically incorrect way. The reduction is indeed small, but it is measurably significant.

It is also significant in the other sense of the word, in that a small reduction can bring the R number to a low enough value to prevent exponential increase in infections.
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