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Old 19.11.2020, 15:26
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Tom, I would assume the majority here are believing in some sort of outlandish fairy tale so can't blame him alone.
It's when you can't see reason that the problems begin.

Getting vaccinated and wearing a mask helps others perhaps a lot more than it does yourself assuming you are fairly young, fit and healthy.

Isn't that the message that Jesus was supposed to have preached? Helping others before yourself?

The hypocrisy of the man is pretty sad. He really needs a bit of self-reflection.

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I assume you, me and few others are in the minority here and the only ones who don't believe in fairy tales?
I have no problem with people believing in what they want but to try and inflict their beliefs on others is all a bit medieval.
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  #362  
Old 19.11.2020, 15:36
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I think this misses the point of the scientific method - it is not just dissent that moves science forward, but alternative verifiable hypotheses that replace ones which are incomplete or invalidated.

The problem in the "post-truth age" is that people see this discussion and claim that it proves previous scientific views are wrong, which is not correct unless and until a new, better idea is proven correct or the old old is proven incorrect.

On your point regarding masks, you use the term "significant" in a scientifically incorrect way. The reduction is indeed small, but it is measurably significant.

It is also significant in the other sense of the word, in that a small reduction can bring the R number to a low enough value to prevent exponential increase in infections.
So Professor Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford is using "significant" in an scientifically incorrect way?

Quote:
Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect

Do face masks work? Earlier this year, the UK government decided that masks could play a significant role in stopping Covid-19 and made masks mandatory in a number of public places. But are these policies backed by the scientific evidence?

Yesterday marked the publication of a long-delayed trial in Denmark which hopes to answer that very question. The ‘Danmask-19 trial’ was conducted in the spring with over 3,000 participants, when the public were not being told to wear masks but other public health measures were in place. Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

Around half of those in the trial received 50 disposable surgical face masks, which they were told to change after eight hours of use. After one month, the trial participants were tested using both PCR, antibody and lateral flow tests and compared with the trial participants who did not wear a mask.

In the end, there was no statistically significant difference between those who wore masks and those who did not when it came to being infected by Covid-19. 1.8 per cent of those wearing masks caught Covid, compared to 2.1 per cent of the control group. As a result, it seems that any effect masks have on preventing the spread of the disease in the community is small.

Some people, of course, did not wear their masks properly. Only 46 per cent of those wearing masks in the trial said they had completely adhered to the rules. But even if you only look at people who wore masks ‘exactly as instructed’, this did not make any difference to the results: 2 per cent of this group were also infected.

When it comes to masks, it appears there is still little good evidence they prevent the spread of airborne diseases. The results of the Danmask-19 trial mirror other reviews into influenza-like illnesses. Nine other trials looking at the efficacy of masks (two looking at healthcare workers and seven at community transmission) have found that masks make little or no difference to whether you get influenza or not.

But overall, there is a troubling lack of robust evidence on face masks and Covid-19. There have only been three community trials during the current pandemic comparing the use of masks with various alternatives – one in Guinea-Bissau, one in India and this latest trial in Denmark. The low number of studies into the effect different interventions have on the spread of Covid-19 – a subject of global importance – suggests there is a total lack of interest from governments in pursuing evidence-based medicine. And this starkly contrasts with the huge sums they have spent on ‘boutique relations’ consultants advising the government.

The only trials which have shown masks to be effective at stopping airborne diseases have been ‘observational studies’ – which observe the people who ordinarily use masks, rather than attempting to create a randomised control group. These trials include six studies carried out in the Far East during the SARS CoV-1 outbreak of 2003, which showed that masks can work, especially when they are used by healthcare workers and patients alongside hand-washing.

But observational studies are prone to recall bias: in the heat of a pandemic, not very many people will recall if and when they used masks and at what distance they kept from others. The lack of random allocation of masks can also ‘confound’ the results and might not account for seasonal effects. A recent observational study paper had to be withdrawn because the reported fall in infection rates over the summer was reverted when the seasonal effect took hold and rates went back up.

This is why large, randomised trials like this most recent Danish study are so important if we want to understand the impact of measures like face masks. Many people have argued that it is too difficult to wait for randomised trials – but Danmask-19 has shown that these kind of studies are more than feasible.

And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...d-of-covid-19-
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  #363  
Old 19.11.2020, 15:45
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So Professor Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford is using "significant" in an scientifically incorrect way?



https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...d-of-covid-19-
No, he is absolutely using it in the right way - here is the quote:

"In the end, there was no statistically significant difference between those who wore masks and those who did not when it came to being infected by Covid-19."

Which would be helpful only if this was in any way related to the point of wearing masks, which is to stop asymptomatic people (or symptomatic selfish idiots) from infecting others.

Typical misinformation - theory A is proven, so the similar sounding theory B must also be true.
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  #364  
Old 19.11.2020, 15:52
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So Professor Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford is using "significant" in an scientifically incorrect way?



https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...d-of-covid-19-
oh ok

"... The findings, however, should not be used to conclude that a recommendation for everyone to wear masks in the community would not be effective in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections, because the trial did not test the role of masks in source control of SARS-CoV-2 infection"
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  #365  
Old 19.11.2020, 16:27
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Re: Mask dodgers

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No, he is absolutely using it in the right way - here is the quote:

"In the end, there was no statistically significant difference between those who wore masks and those who did not when it came to being infected by Covid-19."

Which would be helpful only if this was in any way related to the point of wearing masks, which is to stop asymptomatic people (or symptomatic selfish idiots) from infecting others.

Typical misinformation - theory A is proven, so the similar sounding theory B must also be true.
Some serious moving of the goalposts there!

What I said

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As we know that wearing masks in the community doesn't significantly reduce the rates of infection,
What Professor Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford said

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the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection
And what you said

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On your point regarding masks, you use the term "significant" in a scientifically incorrect way. The reduction is indeed small, but it is measurably significant.
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  #366  
Old 19.11.2020, 16:39
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Re: Mask dodgers

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As we know that wearing masks in the community doesn't significantly reduce the rates of infection, how can high fines be justified?

We don't know. That's the point. It's a reasonable precaution. Presenting opinion as fact again.

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No, of course not, it's just another lazy smear by such people who can't recognise nuance, and who don't understand the scientific process or debate.

Pot, meet Kettle.


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oh ok

"... The findings, however, should not be used to conclude that a recommendation for everyone to wear masks in the community would not be effective in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections, because the trial did not test the role of masks in source control of SARS-CoV-2 infection"

This.
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  #367  
Old 19.11.2020, 16:42
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Some serious moving of the goalposts there!

What I said



What Professor Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford said



And what you said
Actually you're the one moving the goalposts.

Your post stated that masks don't reduce rates of infection, and therefore high fines are not justified, which clearly implies you mean the rate of infection in society rather than the individual (since we generally only fine people for offences against someone else).

You then linked to an article that shows wearing a mask does not reduce the chance of infection by the wearer.

These are not in any way the same thing.

The profs final statement can be read either way, but based on the study the only conclusion possible is that the rate of infection he is referring to is that of the individual wearing the mask.
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  #368  
Old 19.11.2020, 17:00
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Re: Mask dodgers

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We don't know. That's the point. It's a reasonable precaution. Presenting opinion as fact again.
Definately and it's just a matter of respect also.


Our front line workers wear masks 24/7. We go to the dentist, doctors, during surgeries we trust that masks are necessary there (without needing a debate)

We are only required to wear them for short time (public transport, shops etc) And even then, there are those who refuse and up till now with no consequences (hence why i thought it was interesting to post the article)
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Old 19.11.2020, 17:45
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So Professor Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford is using "significant" in an scientifically incorrect way?
Irrelevant.

You live in Switzerland. You now have 3 options:

Wear a mask when required
Stay at home
Don't wear a mask when required and pay any fines imposed as a result.

Your choice, but don't come skriking on here when you get fined. You can do what you like with your health and your safety. I couldn't give a flying fig, but when your choices potentially impact upon others' health and safety, you pay the price. It's that simple.
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  #370  
Old 19.11.2020, 18:08
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Irrelevant.

You live in Switzerland. You now have 3 options:

Wear a mask when required
Stay at home
Don't wear a mask when required and pay any fines imposed as a result.

Your choice, but don't come skriking on here when you get fined. You can do what you like with your health and your safety. I couldn't give a flying fig, but when your choices potentially impact upon others' health and safety, you pay the price. It's that simple.
You don't have to wear a mask if you have a medical certificate.

Now, legally not everyone can ask you to show this document
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Old 19.11.2020, 18:11
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Now, legally not everyone can ask you to show this document
Except the people who are allowed to impose the fine.
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Old 19.11.2020, 18:14
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Except the people who are allowed to impose the fine.
Yeah, as if the police will put extra manpower on mask dodgers

Anyway, anybody on friendly terms with their GP can get this medical certificate
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  #373  
Old 19.11.2020, 18:54
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Anyway, anybody on friendly terms with their GP can get this medical certificate
It would be a pretty lousy GP who handed out medical certificates to their ‘friends’ without justification for it.
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Old 19.11.2020, 19:04
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Yeah, as if the police will put extra manpower on mask dodgers

Anyway, anybody on friendly terms with their GP can get this medical certificate
I have seen one person every cca 3 months. It's not like cops don't have better stuff to do. If it is justified anywhere it would be here due to bad numbers and...people are very disciplined. No dodgers. It just doesn't happen. I do not know anyone more mobile than me, every single day.

Only culinary tourism gets on the nerves here. Not good timing.
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Old 19.11.2020, 19:10
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Yeah, as if the police will put extra manpower on mask dodgers

Anyway, anybody on friendly terms with their GP can get this medical certificate
what does being on friendly terms with a GP have to do with getting a medical certificate?
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Old 19.11.2020, 20:24
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Re: Mask dodgers

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You don't have to wear a mask if you have a medical certificate.

Now, legally not everyone can ask you to show this document
Anyone can ask. Where's the law against asking?
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Anyway, anybody on friendly terms with their GP can get this medical certificate
Why are you so hell-bent on avoiding wearing a mask?

Are you the same about wearing a seatbelt? Or is that "different" because the only person that protects is you, whereas wearing a mask just may protect others?
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Old 19.11.2020, 20:24
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Actually you're the one moving the goalposts.

Your post stated that masks don't reduce rates of infection, and therefore high fines are not justified, which clearly implies you mean the rate of infection in society rather than the individual (since we generally only fine people for offences against someone else).

You then linked to an article that shows wearing a mask does not reduce the chance of infection by the wearer.

These are not in any way the same thing.

The profs final statement can be read either way, but based on the study the only conclusion possible is that the rate of infection he is referring to is that of the individual wearing the mask.
I won't take you up the invitation to come down your rabbit hole. Regardless of how you try and twist my words around, there is no justification for the severity of the fines for not wearing a mask given the evidence (or rather lack of) that they have any influence on the rate of infection within society.

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Irrelevant.

You live in Switzerland. You now have 3 options:

Wear a mask when required
Stay at home
Don't wear a mask when required and pay any fines imposed as a result.

Your choice, but don't come skriking on here when you get fined. You can do what you like with your health and your safety. I couldn't give a flying fig, but when your choices potentially impact upon others' health and safety, you pay the price. It's that simple.
Grateful I am that I live in Switzerland too! The Swiss have learned the lessons of the pointlessness of national lockdowns which is why whilst most of the rest of Europe is in one form of lockdown or another, we remain free to go about our lives with a degree of normality. I have faith that the Swiss will be equally pragmatic once the pointlessness of wearing masks is eventually proven beyond doubt!
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Old 19.11.2020, 20:29
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I have faith that the Swiss will be equally pragmatic once the pointlessness of wearing masks is eventually proven beyond doubt!
You're obviously very convinced by your own argument. I ask just one thing.

Why do dentists and surgeons wear masks while carrying out their work?

Please just answer that question, and tell us truthfully if you would allow a surgeon to operate on you without a mask.
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Old 19.11.2020, 20:48
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Re: Mask dodgers

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You're obviously very convinced by your own argument. I ask just one thing.

Why do dentists and surgeons wear masks while carrying out their work?

Please just answer that question, and tell us truthfully if you would allow a surgeon to operate on you without a mask.
I don't get this comparison, it's comparing apples to oranges.

Surgeons and dentists wear tight fitting anti-bacterial surgical masks which are designed to prevent infective particles falling onto a patient. If either were sick with a virus then they simply wouldn't perform an operation. The masks that they wear are not touched and exchanged as soon as they become too moist. The environments in which they work is also sterile.

I would prefer a surgeon to wear a mask if it reduces the likelihood of a wound becoming infected by bacterial colonization, however this is not comparable to the mass use of masks to prevent a virus. There are even surgeons who say masks don't help in the operating theatre and don't wear them!
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Old 19.11.2020, 21:02
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I don't get this comparison, it's comparing apples to oranges.



There are even surgeon who say masks don't help in the operating theatre and don't wear them!
Really? Where?
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