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  #381  
Old 19.11.2020, 21:18
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I have seen one person every cca 3 months. It's not like cops don't have better stuff to do. If it is justified anywhere it would be here due to bad numbers and...people are very disciplined. No dodgers. It just doesn't happen. I do not know anyone more mobile than me, every single day.
.
I will share my experience in Geneva, must of been early to mid Oct., so before the current shutdown. Was traversing about one third of Geneva by bus. Get on the second stop, only two others on the bus, mother and son, both no masks. Few more stops, bunch of people get on crowded stop, outside no distancing and 90% no masks at stop. On the bus, old granny with her shopping cart, no mask, someone calls her on it, then she struggles to get through bunch of people, finds a seat, then digs into her bag, finds mask puts it on, meanwhile we are already at next stop. Two young dudes get on, one wears it around neck other one wears it hanging on one ear. Another young person on bus has it not covering the nose. So in a 25 minute bus ride, I'd say mask compliance was 70% at best.
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  #382  
Old 19.11.2020, 21:24
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I will share my experience in Geneva, must of been early to mid Oct., so before the current shutdown. Was traversing about one third of Geneva by bus. Get on the second stop, only two others on the bus, mother and son, both no masks. Few more stops, bunch of people get on crowded stop, outside no distancing and 90% no masks at stop. On the bus, old granny with her shopping cart, no mask, someone calls her on it, then she struggles to get through bunch of people, finds a seat, then digs into her bag, finds mask puts it on, meanwhile we are already at next stop. Two young dudes get on, one wears it around neck other one wears it hanging on one ear. Another young person on bus has it not covering the nose. So in a 25 minute bus ride, I'd say mask compliance was 70% at best.
People seem to behave better here in the sticks. Lotsa tsk tsk maybe?
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  #383  
Old 19.11.2020, 21:33
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Anyone can ask. Where's the law against asking?

Why are you so hell-bent on avoiding wearing a mask?

Are you the same about wearing a seatbelt? Or is that "different" because the only person that protects is you, whereas wearing a mask just may protect others?
Mandatory masks for the general population creates false security and increases the chances of infection in the real world due to the way they are used and the questionable quality of masks available everywhere. Not to mention people get indoctrinated and compare your walk on the street with the doctor inside sterile operating room.
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  #384  
Old 19.11.2020, 21:49
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Re: Mask dodgers

Sociopathic traits linked to not wearing a mask or social distancing during pandemic: study
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/02/stud...hy-traits.html

"A recent study out of Brazil may shed some light on why some people are so resistant to wearing masks.

Researchers from the State University of Londrina found that people who reported “antisocial traits,” such as low levels of empathy and high levels of callousness and risk-taking, were less-likely to comply with Covid-19 prevention measures, such as wearing a mask and social distancing.

In this case, “antisocial” refers to traits that are typically present in people diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, which is defined as “a chronic and pervasive disposition to disregard and violate the rights of others,” according to the American Psychological Association. It is characterized by common behaviors such as repeatedly violating the law and exploiting others, and traits such as deceitfulness, impulsivity, aggressiveness, reckless disregard for the safety of self and others and irresponsibility, according to the APA. People with the mental health condition often lack of guilt, remorse, and empathy.

For the new study, researchers surveyed more than 1,500 adults in Brazil for 15 weeks during the pandemic (from March 21 to June 29). People completed a questionnaire that was meant to measure different personality traits, such as empathy, callousness, risk-taking, irresponsibility, impulsivity, hostility and manipulativeness.

Participants also answered questions about how well they were complying to Covid-19 containment measures, such as hand hygiene and social distancing. This part of the survey included a specific question about face masks: “Do you think it is necessary to use a face mask (that protects nose and mouth) in Brazil?”

So, why do some personality types feel like they can flout prevention measures? The study authors suspect that people who have low levels of empathy and antisocial tendencies may have fewer concerns about exposing themselves and others to risks. For these reasons, they may act in their own self-interest, and partake in behaviors that put others at risk of getting the virus.

Another small Polish study found that people who demonstrate the “Dark Triad,” (a set of three socially aversive personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy) were less likely to follow preventative measures or comply with restrictions."



https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...91886920305377
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  #385  
Old 19.11.2020, 22:02
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Re: Mask dodgers

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[B]Sociopathic traits linked to not wearing a mask or social distancing during pandemic
Researchers from the State University of Londrina found that people who reported “antisocial traits,” such as low levels of empathy and high levels of callousness and risk-taking, were less-likely to comply with Covid-19 prevention measures, such as wearing a mask and social distancing.



[/I]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...91886920305377
So a study linking antisocial sociopaths who like to socialize and do not respect social distancing in other words they want to live normal life while some find it unacceptable because:

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  #386  
Old 19.11.2020, 22:14
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So a study linking antisocial sociopaths who like to socialize and do not respect social distancing in other words they want to live normal life while some find it unacceptable because:
Maybe you should take a few minutes to educate yourself about the actual definition of "antisocial personality disorder," because you clearly don't have a clue. It has nothing to do with how 'social' someone is.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20353928
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Old 20.11.2020, 06:39
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Yeah, as if the police will put extra manpower on mask dodgers

Anyway, anybody on friendly terms with their GP can get this medical certificate
I wouldn't even insult my doctors intelligence by asking for a certificate just to avoid the discomfort of wearing a mask.

They are horrible to wear but for the time being we just have to get on with it.With any luck this time next year we will be mask free or in the very least mask wearing will be on a voluntary basis.
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  #388  
Old 20.11.2020, 08:14
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I wouldn't even insult my doctors intelligence by asking for a certificate just to avoid the discomfort of wearing a mask.

They are horrible to wear but for the time being we just have to get on with it.With any luck this time next year we will be mask free or in the very least mask wearing will be on a voluntary basis.
I do hope you're right about that, however I can already imagine the pivot. "Well if you've worn masks until now, you can continue to wear them to prevent seasonal flu, mutated Covid etc.".

I view asking for a mask exemption certificate in the same way people ask for sick notes from their doctor to get off work. Not something that one would do, however something that is often common practice.
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  #389  
Old 20.11.2020, 08:58
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I don't get this comparison, it's comparing apples to oranges.

Surgeons and dentists wear tight fitting anti-bacterial surgical masks which are designed to prevent infective particles falling onto a patient. If either were sick with a virus then they simply wouldn't perform an operation. The masks that they wear are not touched and exchanged as soon as they become too moist. The environments in which they work is also sterile.

I would prefer a surgeon to wear a mask if it reduces the likelihood of a wound becoming infected by bacterial colonization, however this is not comparable to the mass use of masks to prevent a virus. There are even surgeons who say masks don't help in the operating theatre and don't wear them!
Now we're getting somewhere!

So, finally, at last, you have realised that masks help to protect others. This is a big moment. This is an important piece of information that we've been trying to get you to understand, and at last we've got there.

Now, on to the next piece. Surgeons generally wear surgical masks. These are not tight-fitting masks. They are, in fact, exactly the type of mask that many of us are wearing at the moment: the blue or green disposable masks, with a liquid-repellant material (the blue or green side) on the outside and a white absorbent layer on the inside. They don't wear cloth masks, which are much less effective at blocking pathogens than surgical masks. So in summary, surgeons wear the same masks that are available to the general public.

Certainly, a surgeon with a known, transmissible infection won't operate. It is well known and accepted that masks don't provide 100% safety. But they are better than nothing, and they may provide some protection to a patient from a surgeon who is infected with a virus but doesn't yet know it.

You are correct that many, maybe most people don't know how to use a mask properly. There should be much more education on that subject. But that doesn't mean that nobody should wear masks just because some people don't know how to. That is illogical. Many people don't know how to drive a car with maximum efficiency. That doesn't mean that nobody should be allowed to drive. There are some benefits for everybody.

There is no conclusive proof that masks achieve nothing, and historical evidence that they are useful. While there is a chance that masks can help to reduce the spread of infection, we all have a duty (to each other—i.e. to society) to wear a mask, to do the best we can to protect each other. There has never been any suggestion that wearing a mask could harm others; it can only bring benefits, or at the very worst, have no effect.

Based on numerous phrases you've used that match, word for word, those used in this blog and other writings (including tweets) by a Jim Meehan, MD, my guess is that you've been suckered in by conspiracy theorists and swallow whatever they feed you, without critical thought or any form of fact checking. It turns out that Dr Meehan is an ophthalmologist from Oklahoma who has somewhat overstated his accomplishments, and has a long record of anti-vaccination diatribes. Now he has jumped on the anti-mask bandwagon. He has no specialist training in vaccines and has performed no research on masks. His claims have all been debunked by actual, qualified researchers. You really should try thinking for yourself and searching for more information on the topics you're debating.

Last edited by Guest; 20.11.2020 at 11:18. Reason: Typo
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  #390  
Old 20.11.2020, 09:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Now we're getting somewhere!

So, finally, at last, you have realised that masks help to protect others. This is a big moment. This is an important piece of information that we've been trying to get you to understand, and at last we've got there.

Now, on to the next piece. Surgeons generally wear surgical masks. These are not tight-fitting masks. They are, in fact, exactly the type of mask that many of us are wearing at the moment: the blue or green disposabke masks, with a liquid repellant material (the blue or green side) on the outside and a white absorbent layer on the inside. They don't wear cloth masks, which are much less effective at blocking pathogens than surgical masks. So in summary, surgeons wear the same masks that are available to the general public.

Certainly, a surgeon with a known, transmissible infection won't operate. It is well known and accepted that masks don't provide 100% safety. But they are better than nothing, and they may provide some protection to a patient from a surgeon who is infected with a virus but doesn't yet know it.

You are correct that many, maybe most people don't know how to use a mask properly. There should be much more education on that subject. But that doesn't mean that nobody should wear masks just because some people don't know how to. That is illogical. Many people don't know how to drive a car with maximum efficiency. That doesn't mean that nobody should be allowed to drive. There are some benefits for everybody.

There is no conclusive proof that masks achieve nothing, and historical evidence that they are useful. While there is a chance that masks can help to reduce the spread of infection, we all have a duty (to each other—i.e. to society) to wear a mask, to do the best we can to protect each other. There has never been any suggestion that wearing a mask could harm others; it can only bring benefits, or at the very worst, have no effect.

Based on numerous phrases you've used that match, word for word, those used in this blog and other writings (including tweets) by a Jim Meehan, MD, my guess is that you've been suckered in by conspiracy theorists and swallow whatever they feed you, without critical thought or any form of fact checking. It turns out that Dr Meehan is an ophthalmologist from Oklahoma who has somewhat overstated his accomplishments, and has a long record of anti-vaccination diatribes. Now he has jumped on the anti-mask bandwagon. He has no specialist training in vaccines and has performed no research on masks. His claims have all been debunked by actual, qualified researchers. You really should try thinking for yourself and searching for more information on the topics you're debating.
My most trustworthy source is actually my brother-in-law who is a surgeon, however you needn't take my second hand recounting of his opinions, there's also this letter in The Telegraph from John Black a former president of the Royal College of Surgeons.

Quote:
Face masks do not reduce the risk of infection

SIR – If face masks did indeed reduce the risk of infection to surgical patients, as suggested by Malcolm H Wheeler (Letters, July 28), all surgeons would wear them. However, in our practices, we discarded masks more than 20 years ago, after a series of controlled trials showed that using them either had no effect on, or sometimes actually increased, the risk of post-operative infection.
Simply observing that Covid-19 infection rates are lower in some countries where mask use is the norm does not prove cause and effect, which explains why bodies advising ministers were so cautious in recommending face covering. We are told that the present requirement to wear masks in shops is meant to give the public confidence. How insisting on a measure shown to be useless or worse in not dissimilar circumstances will achieve this mystifies us.
John Black FRCS
Malvern, Worcestershire
Antony Narula FRCS
Wargrave, Berkshire
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...ging-hysteria/

There's also the logic of the matter, if a masks doesn't protect the wearer from contracting Covid, why would they protect others especially when the wearer is asymptomatic (ie, not coughing). The chances of this appear to me to be very unlikely indeed, given the effect (or rather lack of) that mask mandates have had on the general infection rate, this looks to be the case.
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  #391  
Old 20.11.2020, 09:59
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Really? Where?
Missed this, in addition to the letter posted previously, here is some further information published before all the Corona mask craziness caused the topic to become completely politicized.

Is Routine Use of a Face Mask Necessary in the Operating Room?

https://pubs.asahq.org/anesthesiolog...cessary-in-the

Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study
(study showed that wearing facemasks in theatre wasn't statistically significant to whether or not a wound became infected)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1853618/

Disposable surgical face masks for preventing surgical wound infection in clean surgery
(same story here)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27115326/

Unmasking the surgeons: the evidence base behind the use of facemasks in surgery
(This paper from 2015 comes to a similar conclusion and states that 96% of surgeons wear masks meaning 4% don't)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...41076815583167
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Old 20.11.2020, 10:02
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Yeah, as if the police will put extra manpower on mask dodgers

Anyway, anybody on friendly terms with their GP can get this medical certificate
They would be a sh*tty, exceptionally selfish friend, as they are putting their doctor friend at risk of losing their license. What you are talking about is known as a "Gefälligkeitsattest" (I only know the High German term, I'm sure the Swiss have some Helvetic variant of it) and it is essentially the forging of a legal document.

Stop being a selfish douchebag.

As for TonyClifton, you are increasingly sounding like someone with severe paranoia and a good helping of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Quite mentally unbalanced, actually. And if you now rant back at me with how those who are aware of the big conspiracy you seem to think is going on are being victimised, possibly with some misplaced reference to the Third Reich, you will only support my statement.
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  #393  
Old 20.11.2020, 10:07
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Re: Mask dodgers

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...As for TonyClifton, you are increasingly sounding like someone with severe paranoia and a good helping of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Quite mentally unbalanced, actually.t.
You've only now realised this?
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  #394  
Old 20.11.2020, 10:10
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Re: Mask dodgers

This continued debate about wearing and not wearing masks is exhausting.

I genuinely hate wearing them ... I have asthma and sinus issues and for some reason, the surgical masks cause me to break out into a rash. Not to mention my signature red lipstick I've worn since I was 16 is no longer a part of my look. But it is what we have to do - shut up, put your mask on and hope for better days ahead. The sooner we shape up, the sooner we are out of this mess.

I find it very strange in a country where military service is mandatory, they can't put a mask on from time to time during a pandemic.
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Old 20.11.2020, 10:12
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Re: Mask dodgers

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They would be a sh*tty, exceptionally selfish friend, as they are putting their doctor friend at risk of losing their license. What you are talking about is known as a "Gefälligkeitsattest" (I only know the High German term, I'm sure the Swiss have some Helvetic variant of it) and it is essentially the forging of a legal document.

Stop being a selfish douchebag.
You really have no idea what you are talking about.

It's enough to feel "severe distress" while wearing a face mask and you can be exempt. In the UK you don't even need your GP for this, you can make a self declaration

https://www.burtondocs.co.uk/2020/07...letter-needed/

You guys obsessed with masks are worse than the cult of David Koresh
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  #396  
Old 20.11.2020, 10:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

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They would be a sh*tty, exceptionally selfish friend, as they are putting their doctor friend at risk of losing their license. What you are talking about is known as a "Gefälligkeitsattest" (I only know the High German term, I'm sure the Swiss have some Helvetic variant of it) and it is essentially the forging of a legal document.

Stop being a selfish douchebag.

As for TonyClifton, you are increasingly sounding like someone with severe paranoia and a good helping of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Quite mentally unbalanced, actually. And if you now rant back at me with how those who are aware of the big conspiracy you seem to think is going on are being victimised, possibly with some misplaced reference to the Third Reich, you will only support my statement.
Yet it's not me that resorting to personal insults

I don't think it's a conspiracy FYI. I don't think the type of government that use Excel to store Covid data is intelligent enough to make a conspiracy like this work. It's far more likely down to a combination of complete failure of government trying desperately to anything that *might* work and bad science.
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Old 20.11.2020, 10:35
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Re: Mask dodgers

A basic right of the human is fresh clean air and when people are forced to wear a mask outside then this basic right is compromised!
https://www.google.com/search?q=basi...obile&ie=UTF-8
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Old 20.11.2020, 10:39
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Yet it's not me that resorting to personal insults

I don't think it's a conspiracy FYI. I don't think the type of government that use Excel to store Covid data is intelligent enough to make a conspiracy like this work. It's far more likely down to a combination of complete failure of government trying desperately to anything that *might* work and bad science.
From March until June 2020, Switzerland spent more than half a billion francs on importing coronavirus face masks.

Now, that's a lot of masks. Shall I remind you that masks have expiry date?

Somebody needs to wear them otherwise the stock goes to the bin. It's clear why they are mandatory
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Old 20.11.2020, 10:41
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Re: Mask dodgers

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From March until June 2020, Switzerland spent more than half a billion francs on importing coronavirus face masks.

Now, that's a lot of masks. Shall I remind you that masks have expiry date?

Somebody needs to wear them otherwise the stock goes to the bin. It's clear why they are mandatory
Fair point! No wonder one can pick up packs of about 500 for 5 bucks in the shops at the moment!
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Old 20.11.2020, 10:45
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Re: Mask dodgers

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From March until June 2020, Switzerland spent more than half a billion francs on importing coronavirus face masks.

Now, that's a lot of masks. Shall I remind you that masks have expiry date?

Somebody needs to wear them otherwise the stock goes to the bin. It's clear why they are mandatory
Its mandatory because the govt wants total control over the people. Totalitarian mentality!
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