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  #141  
Old 26.08.2020, 20:48
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I honestly don't understand the dance cubs being open.
I totally agree! It was beyond naive and purely financial to open up the night clubs.
Only pubs with beer gardens where social distancing could be observed should have been allowed to open. Not hot and sweaty places where people are squeezed into a small space.

Apparently the club goers have been giving fake contact details to avoid quarantine if they have come into contact with the virus. Utterly selfish and irresponsible,and probably the reason why we have a big rise in cases.

Last edited by Darcy1; 26.08.2020 at 20:50. Reason: an addition
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  #142  
Old 27.08.2020, 00:25
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I totally agree! It was beyond naive and purely financial to open up the night clubs.
A cautionary tale...
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ROME (Reuters) - Flavio Briatore, one of Italy’s most flamboyant businessmen who lambasted restrictions aimed at curbing the COVID-19 epidemic, was hospitalized on Tuesday after testing positive for the disease, his staff said in a statement...

...Briatore owns the Billionaire nightclub on the Mediterranean island of Sardinia and last week fiercely condemned a local mayor who had imposed limits on discos in an effort to stamp out a jump in the number of new coronavirus cases...

...His club is now seen as a coronavirus hotspot with more than 60 staff members and guests testing positive in recent days.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN25L2AF
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  #143  
Old 27.08.2020, 09:40
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So questioning rules and thinking for oneself is Trotzphase now-a-days. We used to be taught at school and be appreciated for exactly that. Oh how the world has changed
When you have knowledge of a subject, then of course, questioning is to be encouraged.

However, too many people think seeing their Auntie Liz's conspiracy theory post on Facebook makes them subject matter experts and gives them as valid an opinion as scientists and statisticians who specialise in topics.
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  #144  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:20
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Re: Mask dodgers

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When you have knowledge of a subject, then of course, questioning is to be encouraged.

However, too many people think seeing their Auntie Liz's conspiracy theory post on Facebook makes them subject matter experts and gives them as valid an opinion as scientists and statisticians who specialise in topics.
It's nothing to do with conspiracy theorist, it's simply critically assessing the facts available to us. The issue with face masks is that they are an invasive treatment that are being imposed on the entire population based on weak scientific evidence.

As with lockdown, the consequence of forcing populations to wear masks is not understood. What does it mean for the environment? What does it mean for people's mental health? Just repeating "they may help prevent the spread of the virus" doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid!

Nowhere has it been proven that masks help, NOWHERE! This decision to force people to wear masks is purely driven by politics and not science. People keep making the ridiculous comparison to wearing seat belts, well seat belts have been tested and tested and proven to work, the same can't be said for masks!
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  #145  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:26
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Nowhere has it been proven that masks help, NOWHERE! This decision to force people to wear masks is purely driven by politics and not science. People keep making the ridiculous comparison to wearing seat belts, well seat belts have been tested and tested and proven to work, the same can't be said for masks!
Just to avoid a misunderstanding, you are saying that its not proven that wearing mask reduces the probability of droplet infection?
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  #146  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

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It's nothing to do with conspiracy theorist, it's simply critically assessing the facts available to us. The issue with face masks is that they are an invasive treatment that are being imposed on the entire population based on weak scientific evidence.

As with lockdown, the consequence of forcing populations to wear masks is not understood. What does it mean for the environment? What does it mean for people's mental health? Just repeating "they may help prevent the spread of the virus" doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid!

Nowhere has it been proven that masks help, NOWHERE! This decision to force people to wear masks is purely driven by politics and not science. People keep making the ridiculous comparison to wearing seat belts, well seat belts have been tested and tested and proven to work, the same can't be said for masks!
If what you say is true, then why are the following occurring?
- In the US, states that are mandating masks (mostly the northeast) have much lower rates of COVID infections / deaths than those states that are not (especially the south)
- New cases are, in general, coming more from clubs, bars, etc. where people are in close contact, speaking loudly, little ventilation and not wearing masks
- There are not large infections coming from airline travel, where in most cases you are required to wear a mask for the entire flight

Wearing a mask is not an inconvenience for nearly everyone. Is it not better to wear one, even if the reduction in risk is small (or if you believe unproven)?
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  #147  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:36
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Nowhere has it been proven that masks help, NOWHERE!
So Doctors in sterile operating rooms only wear them because it offsets their beautiful blue eyes?

You are THE prime example of my point above - not having the knowledge to assess these issues properly, but also not aware that you don't have the knowledge. Very Dunning-Kruger.
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  #148  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:42
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Re: Mask dodgers

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If what you say is true, then why are the following occurring?
- In the US, states that are mandating masks (mostly the northeast) have much lower rates of COVID infections / deaths than those states that are not (especially the south)
- New cases are, in general, coming more from clubs, bars, etc. where people are in close contact, speaking loudly, little ventilation and not wearing masks
- There are not large infections coming from airline travel, where in most cases you are required to wear a mask for the entire flight

Wearing a mask is not an inconvenience for nearly everyone. Is it not better to wear one, even if the reduction in risk is small (or if you believe unproven)?
Why does Spain have increasing numbers of Covid which are the highest in Europe at the moment despite having had a strict mask requirement for months now?

How were countries like Sweden and Switzerland able to flatten the curve despite having no mask requirement?

Why have schools shown very low rates of infection without masks being mandatory?

Ad infinitum
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  #149  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:49
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Why does Spain have increasing numbers of Covid which are the highest in Europe at the moment despite having had a strict mask requirement for months now?

How were countries like Sweden and Switzerland able to flatten the curve despite having no mask requirement?

Why have schools shown very low rates of infection without masks being mandatory?

Ad infinitum
Allow me to answer your questions.

The mask is one out of many security measures, like social distancing, washing hands, disinfecting surfaces, partial lockdown.
Each measure has it's own target, sometimes isolated, sometimes combined with other.

Succes and failure of anti covid measures can rarely be assesed isolated, most times it's the combination that works best. Therefore, I personally would be carefull with statements like those from gjfuzzy.

If you answer my question above I can explain what role masks play in the corona defense system.
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  #150  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:50
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Why does Spain have increasing numbers of Covid which are the highest in Europe at the moment despite having had a strict mask requirement for months now?
How many off the increased number of cases are a direct result of the tourism over the summer?

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How were countries like Sweden and Switzerland able to flatten the curve despite having no mask requirement?
Many more people worked from home. Most shops were closed during the lockdown. Children stayed at home...

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Why have schools shown very low rates of infection without masks being mandatory?
Schools have only just started up again after the summer break.

Ad infinitum
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  #151  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:55
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So Doctors in sterile operating rooms only wear them because it offsets their beautiful blue eyes?

You are THE prime example of my point above - not having the knowledge to assess these issues properly, but also not aware that you don't have the knowledge. Very Dunning-Kruger.
Worn properly in a sterile environment, bacterial versus viral infection etc. etc.
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  #152  
Old 27.08.2020, 10:58
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Just to avoid a misunderstanding, you are saying that its not proven that wearing mask reduces the probability of droplet infection?
Yes!!!!

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There is minimal data on influenza virus aerosol shedding, the infectiousness of exhaled aerosols, and none on the impact of facemasks on viral aerosol shedding from patients with seasonal influenza
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591312/
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  #153  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:04
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Worn properly in a sterile environment, bacterial versus viral infection etc. etc.
Yes, you need to wear a mask properly for it to be effective, as you acknowledge above. Glad you're now on board with it being effective when worn correctly.
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  #154  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:07
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Re: Mask dodgers

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The issue with face masks is that they are an invasive treatment that are being imposed on the entire population based on weak scientific evidence.
Wow! You've had your mask surgically implanted? I don't recall that memo!

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Nowhere has it been proven that masks help, NOWHERE! This decision to force people to wear masks is purely driven by politics and not science. People keep making the ridiculous comparison to wearing seat belts, well seat belts have been tested and tested and proven to work, the same can't be said for masks!
How about this for a comparison that my parents had to abide by. You act as if this is a unique situation and response.

mask-dodgers-masks.png
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  #155  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:12
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Re: Mask dodgers

Who wants to bet that in few months we will see that masks did more harm than good because 99.99%. Of people were using them wrong? Or that the protection type was inadequate?

In the end we'll have more damage from wearing the masks "just to show that we are wearing them" instead to keep distance and not increase chances of infection by the masks that spend most of the day in the pocket or around the arm
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  #156  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:15
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Re: Mask dodgers


WTF
From your paper

" Surgical masks reduced the overall number of RNA copies by 3.4 fold. These results suggest an important role for aerosols in transmission of influenza virus and that surgical facemasks worn by infected persons are potentially an effective means of limiting the spread of influenza."

You know that the sentence you quoted was in the abstract and described the status quo before the study????


Either I am missing something or that was the worst own goal ever scored here on EF
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Old 27.08.2020, 11:21
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Re: Mask dodgers

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So Doctors in sterile operating rooms only wear them because it offsets their beautiful blue eyes?

You are THE prime example of my point above - not having the knowledge to assess these issues properly, but also not aware that you don't have the knowledge. Very Dunning-Kruger.
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WTF
From your paper

" Surgical masks reduced the overall number of RNA copies by 3.4 fold. These results suggest an important role for aerosols in transmission of influenza virus and that surgical facemasks worn by infected persons are potentially an effective means of limiting the spread of influenza."

You know that the sentence you quoted was in the abstract and described the status quo before the study????


Either I am missing something or that was the worst own goal ever scored here on EF
I rest my case, your honour.
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  #158  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:24
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Re: Mask dodgers

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WTF
From your paper

" Surgical masks reduced the overall number of RNA copies by 3.4 fold. These results suggest an important role for aerosols in transmission of influenza virus and that surgical facemasks worn by infected persons are potentially an effective means of limiting the spread of influenza."

You know that the sentence you quoted was in the abstract and described the status quo before the study????


Either I am missing something or that was the worst own goal ever scored here on EF
Yes you are missing something (hint: it's all in the numbers)
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Old 27.08.2020, 11:27
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Who wants to bet that in few months we will see that masks did more harm than good because 99.99%. Of people were using them wrong? Or that the protection type was inadequate?

In the end we'll have more damage from wearing the masks "just to show that we are wearing them" instead to keep distance and not increase chances of infection by the masks that spend most of the day in the pocket or around the arm
What harm do they actually do? Ok, if handled in the worst way possible the mask account for some infections more. Besides from that they are just a minor incovenience for most people, for the deaf people obviously more.
And don't you dare coming up with CO2 levels
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Old 27.08.2020, 11:27
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Yes you are missing something (hint: it's all in the numbers)
Tell me pls, always eager to learn.
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