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  #161  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:28
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Re: Mask dodgers

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WTF
From your paper

" Surgical masks reduced the overall number of RNA copies by 3.4 fold. These results suggest an important role for aerosols in transmission of influenza virus and that surgical facemasks worn by infected persons are potentially an effective means of limiting the spread of influenza."

You know that the sentence you quoted was in the abstract and described the status quo before the study????


Either I am missing something or that was the worst own goal ever scored here on EF
The sad fact is that many self-proclaimed experts don't have the slightest understanding of how to properly read scientific publications, effect sizes, probabilities and factoring in confounding variables. In other words: they talk science but have never actually done any.

However, since they are otherwise so profoundly unremarkable in every way apart from their exceptional ignorance, they will fight you on this and every remotely related hill. Thinking they have some special insight beyond that of peer reviewed scientific findings makes them feel special too.
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  #162  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:31
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Why does Spain have increasing numbers of Covid which are the highest in Europe at the moment despite having had a strict mask requirement for months now?
Mass tourism

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How were countries like Sweden and Switzerland able to flatten the curve despite having no mask requirement?
A combination of lockdown, social distancing, increased hygiene measures and close contact business settings being closed. It's a balancing act. If you want to reduce social distancing measures, then masks come into play and get plonked onto the other side of the scales to balance things out.

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Why have schools shown very low rates of infection without masks being mandatory?
Reported and confirmed outbreaks in 41 of Berlin's 825 schools within 2 weeks of them reopening.
August 22 2020
'At least 41 schools in Berlin have reported that students or teachers are infected with coronavirus - less than two weeks after they reopened in the German capital.

The Berliner Zeitung published the numbers and the city's senate for education confirmed them.

Hundreds of students and teachers are in quarantine, the newspaper reported. Primary schools, high schools and trade schools are all affected. There are 825 schools in Berlin.'
https://www.independent.ie/world-new...-39469329.html

August 11, 2020
'Barely a week after Georgia reopened its public schools amid the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, a school district north of Atlanta has ordered 925 students, teachers and staff to self-quarantine after dozens tested positive for the coronavirus. The district also announced the temporary closing of one of its hardest-hit high schools.' https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...=1598520478081
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  #163  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:32
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Re: Mask dodgers

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The sad fact is that many self-proclaimed experts don't have the slightest understanding of how to properly read scientific publications, effect sizes, probabilities and factoring in confounding variables. In other words: they talk science but have never actually done any.
Which is why they should be taken for opinions. Legit. Nothing wrong with opinions. Enjoy responsibly
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  #164  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:35
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Re: Mask dodgers

What's up with Spain, lately...What do they do differently thst we don't?

The growth there in terms of virus shedding looks extreme, last time I checked. I only see people with masks on in the news footage

I really feel for them.
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  #165  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:44
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Re: Mask dodgers

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What's up with Spain, lately...What do they do differently thst we don't?
You mean... other than having a 5x bigger population and much worse public infrastructure than Switzerland?

It's a mystery.
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  #166  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:46
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Which is why they should be taken for opinions. Legit. Nothing wrong with opinions. Enjoy responsibly
Yes responsability. Nothing wrong with sharing opinions, but then they need to be marked as opinions and not sold as facts.
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  #167  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:49
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Nothing wrong with opinions.
Unless they are wrong.

I could opine that paedophilia and genocide are great, but I hope if I did, someone might disabuse me of such ridiculous notions.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they cannot have their own facts, this is the problem here.
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  #168  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:53
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Unless they are wrong.

I could opine that paedophilia and genocide are great, but I hope if I did, someone might disabuse me of such ridiculous notions.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they cannot have their own facts, this is the problem here.
Here I often disagree with some people on this forum.

In my opinion, opinions can't be wrong.

They are what they are, they'll probably result in me not wanting to talk to you anymore but it's "ok" that you think that way.
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  #169  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:56
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Re: Mask dodgers



What surprised me most (but really shouldn't have) is how little time it took for the pandemic to go from "this is a humanity scale problem we must solve as a global humanity" to fracturing in the usual tiresome ways with two groups each creating a totem, they can yell about how the other side is not just dumb but maliciously evil, which is very helpful.

So I guess I actually expect the next time round it will be worse because everyone living through this pandemic now will have picked their pandemic tribe when before they didn't have one.
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  #170  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:57
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Here I often disagree with some people on this forum.

In my opinion, opinions can't be wrong.

They are what they are, they'll probably result in me not wanting to talk to you anymore but it's "ok" that you think that way.
I feel we'll indeed have to agree to disagree.

For example, if you opine people of a different race, creed, gender, etc are inferior then you are wrong and your opinion should be considered invalid. You are entitled to that opinion, but it cannot be lent any weight in any debate, whatsoever.
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  #171  
Old 27.08.2020, 11:59
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Re: Mask dodgers

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WTF
From your paper

" Surgical masks reduced the overall number of RNA copies by 3.4 fold. These results suggest an important role for aerosols in transmission of influenza virus and that surgical facemasks worn by infected persons are potentially an effective means of limiting the spread of influenza."

You know that the sentence you quoted was in the abstract and described the status quo before the study????


Either I am missing something or that was the worst own goal ever scored here on EF
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Yes you are missing something (hint: it's all in the numbers)
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Tell me pls, always eager to learn.
Hey tony don't leave me hanging bro
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  #172  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:00
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Which is why they should be taken for opinions. Legit. Nothing wrong with opinions. Enjoy responsibly
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with opinions at all but people should make it clear that they are just their opinions and not present them as facts.
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  #173  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:08
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I feel we'll indeed have to agree to disagree.

For example, if you opine people of a different race, creed, gender, etc are inferior then you are wrong and your opinion should be considered invalid. You are entitled to that opinion, but it cannot be lent any weight in any debate, whatsoever.
Yeah we probably have to. I'll try to explain briefly anyway.
If a man believes that black people are somehow inferior, he does this because of his socialisation, his education and the summ of his experiences and perceptions. ...These constructed his current reality. You can't just run up to this person and say his reality is wrong or you get stuff like "cancel culture" "thought police" and all those terms.

But as I wrote

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Yes responsability. Nothing wrong with sharing opinions, but then they need to be marked as opinions and not sold as facts.
they should have absolutely no relevance in any decision making.
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  #174  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:28
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Re: Mask dodgers

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For example, if you opine people of a different race, creed, gender, etc are inferior then you are wrong and your opinion should be considered invalid. You are entitled to that opinion, but it cannot be lent any weight in any debate, whatsoever.
Who decides which opinions are considered invalid?
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  #175  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:35
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Who decides which opinions are considered invalid?
I think it's individually.

For example I went to get my lunch today under the opinion I didn't need a mask. My opinion was incorrect.
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  #176  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:36
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Yes responsability. Nothing wrong with sharing opinions, but then they need to be marked as opinions and not sold as facts.
Poster may indeed think that it is science so why should he mark that it is something else than he believes it is? You can, of course, post your opinion on his sources and try to dispute it or discredit, that's the freedom we enjoy here. It gets easier to take all presented stuff with a grain of salt and do the legwork ie your own homework yourself if you are interested in the actual issues. Hundreds of them. Your personal interest, your homework.

The same exact freedom to get smarter can make us dumber, of course. Dtto for debates.

There is no ultimate authority of the real truth. We are responsible for how we interpret stuff, not how others present it. I'd hate to have somebody to start giving "the seal of truth" to whatever gets presented. Gov is very careful with it, innit. It took them longer to react to a "real" threat, innit, in March. They had to verify. The risk was high but they still verified for themselves. Because they are quality and the risk was there, I agree with them.

All that we risk here is a poster discrediting himself for posting bs. Let him have consequences if there are any waiting. Deliver opposing views, other facts. If you keep civil openly and behind the scenes, you'll keep him engaged and he might tell you why he thinks what he thinks. You can of course assume the reasons
or intents, too...but then it is the same risk of bs-ing, as assumptions go.

Anyways. Most posters will present their opinion as reality, maybe we should have some bland EF disclaimer..."internet is operated and consumed by humans" or something. Normative enough?
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Last edited by MusicChick; 27.08.2020 at 13:12.
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Old 27.08.2020, 12:37
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I think it's individually.

For example I went to get my lunch today under the opinion I didn't need a mask. My opinion was incorrect.
Why, you still can think that mask is unnecessary. You just still mist wear one.
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  #178  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:38
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Re: Mask dodgers

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Who decides which opinions are considered invalid?
The EF mod team of course.
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  #179  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:39
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Re: Mask dodgers

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I have asthma, many allergies (mostly asthmatic response), and mild claustrophobia. It is difficult for me to wear a mask but I do. However combined with my motion sickness (which is worse when I am hot/asthmatic), I don’t think I could wear a mask for the duration of a flight back home, for example. Maybe a homemade cloth one would be better.

Seeing as about 75% of the people I see are wearing a mask incorrectly, I wonder how much good it’s actually doing. But I am a compliant sort so I keep my mask on where it is required and hope it’s doing some good. I do think it ironic that the sort of standard disposable masks I bought from Coop specifically say not rated for viruses ...

Edited to emphasize that I really do think it’s a good idea on public transport especially, don’t mean to come across as doubting that mask wearing is helpful, just that many I see don’t have it covering their noses etc. Which kind of defeats the point of us all wearing them. Especially since I really don’t like wearing them but do so anyway out of respect, I get frustrated by these inappropriate users!
I am also Type 2 diabetic and have lung Hypertension which makes me vulnerable to this virus and I feel I have to wear a mask when ever I go shopping or go where there are many other people.

I do think that the masks although may not stop the virus but it helps if someone is too close and coughing or sneezing which can spread the virus in droplets through the air.

I regulary have with me hand sanitizers wipes and wash my hand regulary even at home.

It amuses me as to why other people bother with masks if they don't wear them properly,
seems that they just do it so they cant be accused of not wearing one. Perhaps some education is appropriate to those people, rather than just wearing one as a fashion statement, perhaps?
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  #180  
Old 27.08.2020, 12:45
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Re: Mask dodgers

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What surprised me most (but really shouldn't have) is how little time it took for the pandemic to go from "this is a humanity scale problem we must solve as a global humanity" to fracturing in the usual tiresome ways with two groups each creating a totem, they can yell about how the other side is not just dumb but maliciously evil, which is very helpful.

So I guess I actually expect the next time round it will be worse because everyone living through this pandemic now will have picked their pandemic tribe when before they didn't have one.
Good video, all EF'ers should be able to watch it



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Indeed, there is nothing wrong with opinions at all but people should make it clear that they are just their opinions and not present them as facts.
I'm amazed there are still human beings who believe there are facts. Everything we know is someone's opinion, or better known as knowledge "by the current state of scientific knowledge" *.

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I think it's individually.

For example I went to get my lunch today under the opinion I didn't need a mask. My opinion was incorrect.
That was not opinion, that was lack of information. (Or yesterday's state of knowledge* ) You - unlike me - obviously don't have a friend in Zug who tells you about change of rules in canton of Zurich effective from today.

Last edited by curley; 27.08.2020 at 12:57.
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