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  #21  
Old 23.09.2020, 19:49
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Why would you do that? Inspectors always show up in my experience except on those quick Zurich city trains.

I've get trains daily to and from Oerlikon and Hardbrucke for 8 months in the morning and evening at random times and can count on one hand the amount of times i've had a ticket inspection in that time on the train. I obviously have a Swiss Pass because compared to London transport here is a total bargain. I've had far more inspections on the tram and bus legs of my journey.

Ok it's only a 4 minute journey each way but you can easily see someone would risk it with those kind of odds which is exactly why these kind of rules exist.
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  #22  
Old 23.09.2020, 19:59
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Why would you do that? Inspectors always show up in my experience except on those quick Zurich city trains.
I take an S-bahn to Bern and the controls seem to be regular. I went to Bern last week and was checked both ways, which is a bit unusual. Based on the conversations the inspector was having, many people were trying to get away without a ticket or with the wrong ticket.

I haven't been checked on a tram in town in a very long time, even pre-Corona. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been checked on a bus over the years.
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  #23  
Old 23.09.2020, 20:23
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

I seem to understand from the news that she did indeed buy the ticket before the train departed.


The train was a few seconds late, while the conductors assumed that the time of departure was the one on the timetable.


In other words:
19.33.00 - departure according to timetable
19.33.10 - procedure of buying ticket started

19.33.38 - ticket confirmed
19.33.59 - actual departure of train (I'm assuming this time)
19.34.00 - a little later than this the check happened
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  #24  
Old 23.09.2020, 22:45
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Why would you do that? Inspectors always show up in my experience except on those quick Zurich city trains.
in Bern I've never been checked on local transport, and got checked maybe once a year on the S-bahn in thet past 3 years (taking the train at least 2 times a week).

Could have spared a bunch of money this way.
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Old 24.09.2020, 08:06
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Edit: There really are some lovely people working for SBB, primarily the very young employees. It is the 45-65 age group that seem to be the most difficult to deal with - I hope the job didn’t do that to them.
I put it down to training. (Geddit?)

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I seem to understand from the news that she did indeed buy the ticket before the train departed.
She claims that. SBB claim otherwise.
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  #26  
Old 24.09.2020, 08:50
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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I've get trains daily to and from Oerlikon and Hardbrucke for 8 months in the morning and evening at random times and can count on one hand the amount of times i've had a ticket inspection in that time on the train. I obviously have a Swiss Pass because compared to London transport here is a total bargain. I've had far more inspections on the tram and bus legs of my journey.

Ok it's only a 4 minute journey each way but you can easily see someone would risk it with those kind of odds which is exactly why these kind of rules exist.
Did you actually read the quote you quoted me on?

S Bahns are rarely checked, but the inter city ones are always checked. I take the train everyday....

Perhaps they can make exceptions for IC vs S Bahn?
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Old 24.09.2020, 10:32
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Maybe I read the article incorrectly, but it seems it's her word against SBBs. She says that she bought before boarding. SBB say she didn't.
The whole story hinges on whether she bought the ticket before the train departed; she claims that the train was late departing, but the SBB doesn't seem to confirm that (or did I miss the bit where they did?). So their view is that she clearly bought the ticket after the train departed, not just after she boarded.
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  #28  
Old 24.09.2020, 10:36
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

A literal interpretation of the case may justify the fine. On the other hand, one train rider is one car less on the road, less traffic, less CO2, less summer road maintenance.

So, from one side we have public policies to encourage the use of public transport. From the other side we have literal interpretation of the rules by SBB to the point of discouraging users and make them switch to a car. Just for curiosity. How many of the EFers claiming for the literal interpretation of the rules are regular public transport users?

I'd go for a literal interpretation of the rules if the whole system was perfect (ticket machines, ticket counter, 4G, WiFi, app), but it is not. I got a car a year ago, but had an AG for 4 years. Before that I bought a ticket before every ride for 3 years. I remember the anxiety of missing a connection, ticket automats that only accepted cash, vandalized ticket machines at bus stops (yes, there are idiots who block the coin slot on machines). Sometimes it's purely bad luck, you arrive 5 minutes before and the line for the ticket automat is damned slow.
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  #29  
Old 24.09.2020, 10:38
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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I put it down to training. (Geddit?)

She claims that. SBB claim otherwise.
Don’t all trains have cameras these days?

If I was her and I was convinced I was right I would demand to see the video footage .
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  #30  
Old 24.09.2020, 10:47
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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But English is just a translation, not legally enforceable, so let's see French. https://www.sbb.ch/fr/horaire/horaires-mobiles/mobile-cff/faq.html" Jusq'ŕ quel moment puis-je acheter mes billets sur Mobile CFF? Jusqu'au debut de votre voyage, ou just avant le départ du train." It seems boarding the train is irrelevant, what matters is the definition of train departure. My layman interpretation is when the train moves, but maybe it's when the doors close or perhaps it is the scheduled departure time? Which one?
I think there is also another provision about being on a train when it is not moving . You may board a train without having a ticket , for example f you are assisting or accompanying somebody . But you need to be off the train a certain number of minutes before the scheduled departure time .

Thus if the person in this story was on the train at the precise moment of scheduled departure but did not have a ticket yet , the person would technically have been in infraction of the conditions of carriage .
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  #31  
Old 24.09.2020, 11:02
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Edit: There really are some lovely people working for SBB, primarily the very young employees. It is the 45-65 age group that seem to be the most difficult to deal with - I hope the job didn’t do that to them.
According my skewed observation older male SBB employees checking tickets are mostly relaxed and let a 3 be even if appropriate. Female SBB employees checking tickets however can be real bitches. Then there are also the ZVV or VBZ ticket inspectors. Those are another class for it self as there job is to inspect tickets only while the SBB employees are also there for selling class upgrades and give information about connections.

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How many of the EFers claiming for the literal interpretation of the rules are regular public transport users? .
Once every year on christmass is also regular

It is one of the beauty of Fairtiq: You switch it on when you walk to the bus/tram stop or train station and have not to think about such mundane things (except that need GPS, network connection, have to be logged in, etc.) At the end of the journey you should switch it off as it drains the battery.

I admit I also bought my tickets last second and knew it was delivered late. But as we see, better have a slightly late ticket (CHF 30) than no ticket. And i rather risk CHF 30 than wait another 30 minutes for the next train.

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Don’t all trains have cameras these days?

If I was her and I was convinced I was right I would demand to see the video footage .
The cameras might be good, but I cannot think that they are able to show if the ticket was delivered to the app before or after the train left.

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I seem to understand from the news that she did indeed buy the ticket before the train departed.
That what she claims>

In other words:
19.33.00 - departure according to timetable
19.33.10 - procedure of buying ticket started
19.33.15 - entering train
19.33.25 - actual departure of train according SBB
19.33.38 - ticket confirmed
19.33.50 - actual departure of train according the client
19.34.00 - a little later than this the check happened

If there is leverage you must challenge SBB knowledge of the train's actual departure time and take into consideration the problem of synchronized clocks and delay of database transactions. They might come up with a reasonable explanation how the systems works, or they might come up with bullshit where some seconds of difference, even minutes, should not be taken into account,.
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  #32  
Old 24.09.2020, 11:20
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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According my skewed observation older male SBB employees checking tickets are mostly relaxed and let a 3 be even if appropriate. Female SBB employees checking tickets however can be real bitches. Then there are also the ZVV or VBZ ticket inspectors. Those are another class for it self as there job is to inspect tickets only while the SBB employees are also there for selling class upgrades and give information about connections.
The complete opposite for me...the latest run in I had was from a 60+ male who proudly said I could report him as he was on pension in 2 weeks. Only one bad experience with a woman...

ZVV & VBZ are separate...lets get that clear.
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  #33  
Old 24.09.2020, 11:56
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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The cameras might be good, but I cannot think that they are able to show if the ticket was delivered to the app before or after the train left.


That what she claims>

In other words:
19.33.00 - departure according to timetable
19.33.10 - procedure of buying ticket started
19.33.15 - entering train
19.33.25 - actual departure of train according SBB
19.33.38 - ticket confirmed
19.33.50 - actual departure of train according the client
19.34.00 - a little later than this the check happened

If there is leverage you must challenge SBB knowledge of the train's actual departure time and take into consideration the problem of synchronized clocks and delay of database transactions. They might come up with a reasonable explanation how the systems works, or they might come up with bullshit where some seconds of difference, even minutes, should not be taken into account,.
Video footage is timestamped. It should thus be possible to reconstruct the exact departure time of the train and whether or not the person in the article was still fiddling with their phone after the train had departed.
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  #34  
Old 24.09.2020, 12:01
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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S Bahns are rarely checked, but the inter city ones are always checked. I take the train everyday....
I take the Inter City every day but its a 15 minute ride. I guess that's too short to do the entire train so whether or not I get checked can be pot luck.
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  #35  
Old 24.09.2020, 12:23
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

I buy any tickets I need before I leave the house using my own sturdy Wifi connection. I've experienced that dread and stress of trying to buy just before boarding the train and my phone decides it doesn't want to connect to the internet and I'm left having to decide on whether to board or not.
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  #36  
Old 24.09.2020, 12:34
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Video footage is timestamped. It should thus be possible to reconstruct the exact departure time of the train and whether or not the person in the article was still fiddling with their phone after the train had departed.
While it is a very good idea, the expense for the checking of the video would be quite cumbersome for each and every fine and complaint.
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Old 24.09.2020, 12:45
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Video footage is timestamped. It should thus be possible to reconstruct the exact departure time of the train and whether or not the person in the article was still fiddling with their phone after the train had departed.
You clearly never had the joy to deal with non-synchronized clocks across various systems and find a solution how you could synchronize them reliable and in a robust way.

BTW: The tradition SBB clocks which stops at 12 and otherwise run smoothly a bit faster than it should is a genius simple solution but only truly accurate to the minute (plus speed of light) when it receives the sync pulse from the central clock.
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  #38  
Old 24.09.2020, 12:55
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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You clearly never had the joy to deal with non-synchronized clocks across various systems and find a solution how you could synchronize them reliable and in a robust way.
And provable, which is perhaps the main point here.

There's a huge difference between clocks synchronised well enough to calculate, for example, parking ticket costs, and what would be required to stand up in a court of law as proof of an offence. One would have to demonstrate not just that they were accurately synchronised, but that a regularly-audited set of checks and controls were in place to ensure that they would always remain so.

As an aside, this is the reason why the idea of using French autoroute toll tickets to issue speeding fines has always been rejected, despite occasional claims that they do so.
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  #39  
Old 24.09.2020, 14:57
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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While it is a very good idea, the expense for the checking of the video would be quite cumbersome for each and every fine and complaint.
It's not going to be like spooling through 2 hours of footage to find out who vandalized something. They know the precise second the ticket was bought so should be quite easy to home in on.

And they would only check the footage for those who demand it.

And if you demand it and it turns out you are wrong they can still bill you the costs on top of the fine. That would discourage time wasters.
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Old 24.09.2020, 14:59
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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There's a huge difference between clocks synchronised well enough to calculate, for example, parking ticket costs, and what would be required to stand up in a court of law as proof of an offence. One would have to demonstrate not just that they were accurately synchronised, but that a regularly-audited set of checks and controls were in place to ensure that they would always remain so.
The court woulkd not need to demand proof of synchronisation.

If the footage shows the train is moving (you know, stuff outside is moving) and the person is still struggling to buy a ticket, that should convince any judge, no?
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