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Old 24.09.2020, 15:13
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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The court woulkd not need to demand proof of synchronisation.

If the footage shows the train is moving (you know, stuff outside is moving) and the person is still struggling to buy a ticket, that should convince any judge, no?
No.

Just because someone's still using their phone in no way implies that they haven't yet completed the ticket transaction. Which is why someone suggested that timestamps could be used, and why we were discussing their likely admissibility as evidence.
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Old 24.09.2020, 15:45
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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If the footage shows the train is moving (you know, stuff outside is moving) and the person is still struggling to buy a ticket, that should convince any judge, no?
They might be texting, organizing the apps, reading EF, etc.

And in the end it doesn't matter as apparently SBB does not claim the purchase was started after the train has departed nor that it was started after the train was boarded but that the purchased was not processed by the system before the train has departed.

A video might show that the customer did not use the phone till the ticket inspector arrives but that will not exonerate them because the SBB clearly says it needs some time to finalize the purchase. A video might show at what "time" the doors were closing and the train started to move. If the video time is later than 19.33.38 it would be on the SBB to proof that the clocks are not in sync. If they do so you might cast reasonable doubt that the whole system is not synchronized and it is not really possible to determine which event happened in real life first: issuing of the valid ticket or the actual departure of the train.

But it is all mood as the requested CHF 30 seemingly have been paid and the customer, at least in a legal sense, agrees with the SBB's point of view.

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Which is why someone suggested that timestamps could be used, and why we were discussing their likely admissibility as evidence.
AFAIK it would be a civil law suit and not a criminal law suit. In case of civil law suits it depends also on what the parties consider as admissible and what is not challenged as non-admissible or incorrect evidence.
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  #43  
Old 24.09.2020, 16:14
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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...it is not really possible to determine which event happened in real life first: issuing of the valid ticket or the actual departure of the train.
I think this is the major challenge.

The database accessible to the ticket controller may show that the ticket was bought after departure. But, since the synchronization of all things is not perfect (phone app, credit card, SBB ticket database, SBB train control system, videocameras on the wagons) making a judgement based on a 38 seconds difference is not advisable. It's the proverbial use trash as input and you get trash as output with computers.

The SBB is getting away with it without having to prove the passenger was effectively late because no one is going to start a lawsuit to find the truth over 30 CHF.
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Old 24.09.2020, 16:58
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

I think that some of you are being quite unkind to the CFF. They perform an amazing job, thousands of daily train sectors, usually on time.

But, despite the subsidies they receive, they are not a charity. Service is provided and payment is expected. But not everyone thinks they need to pay.

The CFF have brought in policies designed to catch the cheats, and obviously they are not perfect. The innocent getting swept up with the cheaters. I expect they will learn from their mistakes, but the tabloid media just waiting to pounce on them when their systems are found lacking.

I’m actually surprised how few checks are made, particularly on regional trains, but there has got to be a cost benefit case here.

If you are going to cheat, expect to get caught.
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Old 24.09.2020, 17:16
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

There is a drastic difference (in many ways) across the rosti graben.

Cheats should be caught and reprimanded, but customer service & appreciation towards paying customers should somewhat be in existence too. But since there is a monopoly in the market, it does not exist.

Here's another ludicrous recent story:

https://www.20min.ch/story/kontrolle...e-135222556964
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Old 24.09.2020, 18:03
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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The whole story hinges on whether she bought the ticket before the train departed; she claims that the train was late departing, but the SBB doesn't seem to confirm that (or did I miss the bit where they did?). So their view is that she clearly bought the ticket after the train departed, not just after she boarded.
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Old 24.09.2020, 18:06
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

Interesting reading. I have often jumped on a train if one arrives and then bought a ticket on the app for the next one. I think it's time to buy a new phone so I can let the sbb or fartiq app can spank the battery
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Old 24.09.2020, 18:28
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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There is a drastic difference (in many ways) across the rosti graben.

Cheats should be caught and reprimanded, but customer service & appreciation towards paying customers should somewhat be in existence too. But since there is a monopoly in the market, it does not exist.

Here's another ludicrous recent story:

https://www.20min.ch/story/kontrolle...e-135222556964
So the customer was taken the piss of (do you use it like that?) while trying to take the piss.

Absolutely superb trolling!
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  #49  
Old 24.09.2020, 19:13
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

Well when the Swiss trains are running correctly, if it says the train is leaving at 15:38 that's when the doors close and the train starts moving. At 15:38:38 it's long left the platform. Basically what the rules say is that you must have bought your ticket by 15:38:00.
Now when the train is running late, which is quite normal on the Léman Express, I guess you could make the case you did buy your ticket before the train left and I guess there's a way to determine when the train actually left.
Slightly different story, I have a load of CFF Evasion day cards and a lot of CFF conductors are incapable of reading them on their app. Every other transport company in Switzerland is capable of reading them, only the CFF, the biggest one and the one that presumably set this all up isn't. Last time I refused to give the inspector any details (they're not police after all), told them they were incompetent and to phone their boss and say they needed additional training. They just went away.
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Old 25.09.2020, 10:18
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

I’ve said this before , but when the timetable says a train leaves at 18:38 , that does not mean the train leaves at 18:38:00. Firstly there are differences between the published and the internal timetable and the train might actually leave at 18:38:30 or something even more fractional , or this might even depend on the day of the week and other factors .

There are even stations , especially on regional trains , where the internal timetable does not even provide a time but the driver is essentially required to leave as early as possible , or maybe not even stop at all if there has been no stop request . The time published in the public timetable is thus the earliest possible time you can expect the train to depart . These are typically the trains that appear to be consistently 3 minutes late at all intermediate stations but depart the starting point on time and reach the final station on time .

So if the public timetable says the train departed at 18:38 , it is advisable to board the train before that and with a valid ticket . But there is no implied guarantee that the train will depart at 18:38:00.


If you board a train very close or even past published departure time , you are taking into account that maybe you can’t purchase that ticket before the train leaves . Essentially you are gambling .
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Old 25.09.2020, 10:34
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Well when the Swiss trains are running correctly, if it says the train is leaving at 15:38 that's when the doors close and the train starts moving. At 15:38:38 it's long left the platform. Basically what the rules say is that you must have bought your ticket by 15:38:00.
.
No the rule does not say that. Please. I quoted and linked to the actual rules and regulations.

You must be in possession of a valid ticket when the train actually departs.

T600, Section 3.1.4 "Die Kundinnen und Kunden müssen vor Antritt der Reise (tatsächliche Abfahrt des Kurses) im Besitz des E-Tickets sein."
https://www.allianceswisspass.ch/de/...feVorschriften
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Old 29.09.2020, 23:18
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

Actually seen an argument on the train about this.

About a month ago, coming home from a night out on Zurich on a delayed train, a man enters the train and stands by the door stopping door from closing, he's joined a minute later by another man and woman.

They sit down together opposite me. On way home guard checks tickets and says man1 has bought his online ticket too late, man1 argues with guard until he checks man2's and woman's tickets from the machine that is time-stamped later than man1's online ticket.

By now half the carriage is tutting and finger wagging the guard, so he calls it a night and walks off. The guard took a bit of stick in that carriage.
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Old 30.09.2020, 11:29
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Here's another ludicrous recent story:

https://www.20min.ch/story/kontrolle...e-135222556964
Mrs Nickatbasel has a label on the front (that does not obscure photo nor text) with the GA expiry date written on as a reminder. The Swisspass - unlike the old GA - does not have an expiry date written on the plastic.

Has never been an issue on inspection.
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  #54  
Old 30.09.2020, 13:16
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Mrs Nickatbasel has a label on the front (that does not obscure photo nor text) with the GA expiry date written on as a reminder. The Swisspass - unlike the old GA - does not have an expiry date written on the plastic.

Has never been an issue on inspection.
It is obvious that there are a few inspectors who take their job a little too seriously and wish that they were police officers rather than train inspectors. Luckily it seems they are in the minority.

I got stuck in the wind gusts that came in over the weekend in Pfaffikon and experienced this for myself. Not only does SBB want you to wait for the next train even if there is one available to take earlier, they also want you to freeze while doing so:

https://www.20min.ch/story/pendler-f...n-813759451487
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Old 30.09.2020, 13:36
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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It is obvious that there are a few inspectors who take their job a little too seriously
And rightly so!

Tom
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Old 30.09.2020, 14:55
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

One day I had to take a trip and all the SBB ticketing systems were down. It was impossible to buy a ticket online or at a ticket counter and the official message was to ride without a ticket. The ticket inspector came and asked me to buy a ticket from him but the system was still down. I tried 5 different cards and all of them failed. He told me it was my fault and metaphorically shook me upside down for all the cash I had on me, which was all in euros. I should have just told him to do one.
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Old 30.09.2020, 17:52
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

I had the same recently and the guy was really nice about it too, every ride is an adventure it seems.
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  #58  
Old 03.10.2020, 09:38
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

LOL - EF made it to TimeOut.
Which one of you wrote the piece?!

https://www.timeout.com/switzerland/...d4Ur0RB7AaDJFM

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It is obvious that there are a few inspectors who take their job a little too seriously and wish that they were police officers rather than train inspectors.
I don’t agree. It depends how generous the inspector is feeling. If cynical (probably based on his experiences!) he will think that she only bought the ticket as she saw him coming to inspect.

What I have also seen mentioned is the talk about “late” departure. The SBB has definitions for what late means. I don’t think 38s makes the cut as late...

Although you may think this is not relevant, as a comparison the U.K. has clear rules that you may only board trains with a valid ticket. Exceptions being services where ticket machines are not available on platforms.
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Old 03.10.2020, 09:55
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Although you may think this is not relevant, as a comparison the U.K. has clear rules that you may only board trains with a valid ticket. Exceptions being services where ticket machines are not available on platforms.
That sounds like a good rule but some stations are data free zones. Geneva airport is one that I had to go back outside to get a signal - and that was on the ground level, the tracks are underground. You get a signal as soon as you leave the tunnel, often my etickets show WTC as the start point.
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Old 03.10.2020, 14:28
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Re: SBB fine for 38 seconds late ticket

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Although you may think this is not relevant, as a comparison the U.K. has clear rules that you may only board trains with a valid ticket. Exceptions being services where ticket machines are not available on platforms.
Southeastern Trains allow purchase on board. But you have to seek out the inspector as soon as you get on. I did this a couple of years ago, as the train was about to leave. He noted our details and then when he did his inspection, he sold us tickets.
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