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-   -   Rant: ZTL in Italy (https://www.englishforum.ch/complaints-corner/303443-rant-ztl-italy.html)

EPMike 01.04.2021 11:17

Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Rant alert - no purpose other then venting.

as last year, due to corona, I could not make holidays overseas, we went couple of time to Italy - by car.

What we did not know about are the so called ZTL zones: Zona a Traffico Limitato

Unfortunately, fines arrive with quite a delay, so we kept driving into city centers, and have accumulated 3 fines so far. I fear more to arrive by post as time passes.

Has anyone else fallen into this tourst trap?

I know I should have known and all that. However, in Italy there are literally hundreds of signs in each intersection and these signs are easy to miss, in particular when you just other cars into the city center.

Also: does anyone know of a way to get a permit, similar to the Umweltplakette in Germany?

st2lemans 01.04.2021 11:23

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

Axa 01.04.2021 11:28

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
And not only Italy, all around Europe. Check this site before visiting a new city https://www.urbanaccessregulations.eu/

kri 01.04.2021 11:38

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291832)
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

Was going to write the exact same. Not a tourist trap, just catches anyone who does not read signs and come on, this is quite common now in a lot of big cities that one cannot drive in the city center.

Chalk it up to experience and pay.

curley 01.04.2021 11:40

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291832)
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

And afaIk, the locals need to have those stickers as well?

nejc 01.04.2021 11:45

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Hm, last year I was following a navigation and an Italian car into the historical center of Merano searching for my hotel and misinterpreted the allowed hours to drive there. I needed few hundred meters that things clicked right in my head, and when I turned my motorcycle around, it was already too late. Few months later I got a fine of ca 80 euros.
- it was my mistake
- comparing to Swiss fines I find that one low
IMHO, dense centers are usually better without too much traffic, so ZTL is a right thing to do. Maybe Italians could go for some other system (physical barrier) but it would be just more expensive and uglier. I guess it is on us, to change our behavior.
btw. Do you know, that success of humans is because of our ability to adapt to different environments. Challenging your brain to adapt to different cultures is actually really good for continual development, so, take it positive :) your brain will adapt to this Italian old "novelty", if you keep going there. And I think it is worth. :)

EPMike 01.04.2021 13:45

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291832)
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

Really, How the hell did I not know about that.

Well, lesson learned - the expensive way, but hey. My mistake

st2lemans 01.04.2021 13:50

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Officially since 1989, un-officially since 1984: http://transportchoice.org/wp-conten...le-Dec2016.pdf

Tom

curley 01.04.2021 13:53

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EPMike (Post 3291884)
Really, How the hell did I not know about that.

Well, lesson learned - the expensive way, but hey. My mistake

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291886)
Officially since 1989, un-officially since 1984: http://transportchoice.org/wp-conten...le-Dec2016.pdf

Tom

Wrong perspective, EPMike. What a lucky guy you are!! :D

edit: Seems strange to me though. Drove to Italy a lot in 96 and knew nothing about this and was not fined either.

EPMike 01.04.2021 13:57

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Do you guys know how to register a hybrid vehicle (with swiss plates) for the zones which are based on emission rating?

All I found was a separate one for each city- which is quite a hassle

DL21 01.04.2021 15:48

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
there's no central system. the rules differ from place to place. in some places its time based, resident based, ticket based etc. very italian.

did you know the speed limits in italy depend on engine capacity? how logical is that?

nejc 01.04.2021 16:32

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EPMike (Post 3291890)
Do you guys know how to register a hybrid vehicle (with swiss plates) for the zones which are based on emission rating?
All I found was a separate one for each city- which is quite a hassle

I suggest you to read the nice paper st2lemans had linked few post above, than you will understand the system a litte bit better, for example:

"The distinctive quality of ZTLs is that they restrict which vehicles can enter, but they do not prohibit all cars, as in pedestrian zones, and you cannot buy your way in, as with tolls or congestion pricing. The primary goal is livability not revenue."

I hope you do understand what you are asking for, i.e. a "a multipass" is the opposite of the idea of the system of ZTL. Maybe just accept the idea that driving with a car everywhere is soooo 20th century. It is year 2021.

jeroen 01.04.2021 16:54

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
One reason for driving full-electric: many of these zones are totally happy to have your space-ship-humming car in them ;)

But yes, one has to watch out a lot if you are unknown to the area: GPS maps might reveal them (just like they always warn for the silly road-tax on swiss roads, while, if you live there, you are aware of that.... sigh) and otherwise, research before you go...

cinzia_t 01.04.2021 18:01

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291932)
there's no central system. the rules differ from place to place. in some places its time based, resident based, ticket based etc. very italian.

did you know the speed limits in italy depend on engine capacity? how logical is that?

The ZTL is established By the comune (=Gemeinde) and therefore does not follow any national rule.
The fact that the speed limit depends on the engine capacity in Italy is a fake news.

DL21 01.04.2021 18:22

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cinzia_t (Post 3291971)
The ZTL is established By the comune (=Gemeinde) and therefore does not follow any national rule.
The fact that the speed limit depends on the engine capacity in Italy is a fake news.

fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/AAFM5D/ita...lle-AAFM5D.jpg

lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.

Axa 01.04.2021 18:45

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291975)
fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:

lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.

Fuel economy? Pollution? A small engine (<1 L) sucks at fuel consumption if it's run at high RPMs to sustain 130 km/h.

cinzia_t 01.04.2021 18:55

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291975)
fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/AAFM5D/ita...lle-AAFM5D.jpg

lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.

The limit in the motorway is 130. Never heard of those speed limits in 40+ years that I lived in Italy (and got my driving license there as well). Not sure where you got the picture from- for sure if you dive I. The motorway at 140 even with a Ferrari you get a fine

GParker 01.04.2021 19:08

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Simple rule: If you are in a city centre in Italy and not in a traffic jam then you’re in a ZTL :D

DL21 01.04.2021 19:09

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cinzia_t (Post 3291986)
The limit in the motorway is 130. Never heard of those speed limits in 40+ years that I lived in Italy (and got my driving license there as well). Not sure where you got the picture from- for sure if you dive I. The motorway at 140 even with a Ferrari you get a fine

actually the motorway can be up to 150 under certain conditions.
every border around here has that sign displayed as you enter italy.
the fact that you got your license in italy and drove for 40 years without actually knowing the rules, i believe proves my point.

also pigs would fly before you actually get a fine on italian motorways. at any speed. its EXTREMELY rare.

venetian 01.04.2021 21:41

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291990)
actually the motorway can be up to 150 under certain conditions.

It could, but it's not. Anywhere.
https://www.clubalfa.it/131859-limit...-quando-e-dove

Quote:

every border around here has that sign displayed as you enter italy.
That sign is just obsolete and should be replaced. Here's the Italian limits as per actual law:
http://www.aci.it/i-servizi/normativ...-velocita.html
according to Wikipedia, the limits you reported are old limits from a 1977 law, which has since been superseded at least a couple of times.
Don't, don't, don't drive at 140 km/h on Italian motorways.
cinzia_t is just correct.

Also, this is an updated sign when you enter Italy from Austria:
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5596...7i13312!8i6656

Quote:

also pigs would fly before you actually get a fine on italian motorways. at any speed. its EXTREMELY rare.
Not so extremely, particularly on the network managed by Autostrade per l'Italia where the "Tutor" system is active (it's active again, after the suspension due to a software patent violation).
In my life it happened to me to drive above 130 km/h, but you have to know where and when. If unsure, don't!

@EPMike: in some places ZTLs are confusing for locals as well. Some of them have big signs with a lot of writings and complicated time schedules depending on time, day of week and so on. They're not designed as tourist traps, it's just that they are not able to make them simpler, probably because many categories demand special exceptions.


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