English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Complaints corner (https://www.englishforum.ch/complaints-corner/)
-   -   Rant: ZTL in Italy (https://www.englishforum.ch/complaints-corner/303443-rant-ztl-italy.html)

EPMike 01.04.2021 11:17

Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Rant alert - no purpose other then venting.

as last year, due to corona, I could not make holidays overseas, we went couple of time to Italy - by car.

What we did not know about are the so called ZTL zones: Zona a Traffico Limitato

Unfortunately, fines arrive with quite a delay, so we kept driving into city centers, and have accumulated 3 fines so far. I fear more to arrive by post as time passes.

Has anyone else fallen into this tourst trap?

I know I should have known and all that. However, in Italy there are literally hundreds of signs in each intersection and these signs are easy to miss, in particular when you just other cars into the city center.

Also: does anyone know of a way to get a permit, similar to the Umweltplakette in Germany?

st2lemans 01.04.2021 11:23

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

Axa 01.04.2021 11:28

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
And not only Italy, all around Europe. Check this site before visiting a new city https://www.urbanaccessregulations.eu/

kri 01.04.2021 11:38

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291832)
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

Was going to write the exact same. Not a tourist trap, just catches anyone who does not read signs and come on, this is quite common now in a lot of big cities that one cannot drive in the city center.

Chalk it up to experience and pay.

curley 01.04.2021 11:40

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291832)
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

And afaIk, the locals need to have those stickers as well?

nejc 01.04.2021 11:45

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Hm, last year I was following a navigation and an Italian car into the historical center of Merano searching for my hotel and misinterpreted the allowed hours to drive there. I needed few hundred meters that things clicked right in my head, and when I turned my motorcycle around, it was already too late. Few months later I got a fine of ca 80 euros.
- it was my mistake
- comparing to Swiss fines I find that one low
IMHO, dense centers are usually better without too much traffic, so ZTL is a right thing to do. Maybe Italians could go for some other system (physical barrier) but it would be just more expensive and uglier. I guess it is on us, to change our behavior.
btw. Do you know, that success of humans is because of our ability to adapt to different environments. Challenging your brain to adapt to different cultures is actually really good for continual development, so, take it positive :) your brain will adapt to this Italian old "novelty", if you keep going there. And I think it is worth. :)

EPMike 01.04.2021 13:45

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291832)
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom

Really, How the hell did I not know about that.

Well, lesson learned - the expensive way, but hey. My mistake

st2lemans 01.04.2021 13:50

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Officially since 1989, un-officially since 1984: http://transportchoice.org/wp-conten...le-Dec2016.pdf

Tom

curley 01.04.2021 13:53

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EPMike (Post 3291884)
Really, How the hell did I not know about that.

Well, lesson learned - the expensive way, but hey. My mistake

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3291886)
Officially since 1989, un-officially since 1984: http://transportchoice.org/wp-conten...le-Dec2016.pdf

Tom

Wrong perspective, EPMike. What a lucky guy you are!! :D

edit: Seems strange to me though. Drove to Italy a lot in 96 and knew nothing about this and was not fined either.

EPMike 01.04.2021 13:57

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Do you guys know how to register a hybrid vehicle (with swiss plates) for the zones which are based on emission rating?

All I found was a separate one for each city- which is quite a hassle

DL21 01.04.2021 15:48

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
there's no central system. the rules differ from place to place. in some places its time based, resident based, ticket based etc. very italian.

did you know the speed limits in italy depend on engine capacity? how logical is that?

nejc 01.04.2021 16:32

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EPMike (Post 3291890)
Do you guys know how to register a hybrid vehicle (with swiss plates) for the zones which are based on emission rating?
All I found was a separate one for each city- which is quite a hassle

I suggest you to read the nice paper st2lemans had linked few post above, than you will understand the system a litte bit better, for example:

"The distinctive quality of ZTLs is that they restrict which vehicles can enter, but they do not prohibit all cars, as in pedestrian zones, and you cannot buy your way in, as with tolls or congestion pricing. The primary goal is livability not revenue."

I hope you do understand what you are asking for, i.e. a "a multipass" is the opposite of the idea of the system of ZTL. Maybe just accept the idea that driving with a car everywhere is soooo 20th century. It is year 2021.

jeroen 01.04.2021 16:54

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
One reason for driving full-electric: many of these zones are totally happy to have your space-ship-humming car in them ;)

But yes, one has to watch out a lot if you are unknown to the area: GPS maps might reveal them (just like they always warn for the silly road-tax on swiss roads, while, if you live there, you are aware of that.... sigh) and otherwise, research before you go...

cinzia_t 01.04.2021 18:01

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291932)
there's no central system. the rules differ from place to place. in some places its time based, resident based, ticket based etc. very italian.

did you know the speed limits in italy depend on engine capacity? how logical is that?

The ZTL is established By the comune (=Gemeinde) and therefore does not follow any national rule.
The fact that the speed limit depends on the engine capacity in Italy is a fake news.

DL21 01.04.2021 18:22

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cinzia_t (Post 3291971)
The ZTL is established By the comune (=Gemeinde) and therefore does not follow any national rule.
The fact that the speed limit depends on the engine capacity in Italy is a fake news.

fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/AAFM5D/ita...lle-AAFM5D.jpg

lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.

Axa 01.04.2021 18:45

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291975)
fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:

lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.

Fuel economy? Pollution? A small engine (<1 L) sucks at fuel consumption if it's run at high RPMs to sustain 130 km/h.

cinzia_t 01.04.2021 18:55

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291975)
fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/AAFM5D/ita...lle-AAFM5D.jpg

lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.

The limit in the motorway is 130. Never heard of those speed limits in 40+ years that I lived in Italy (and got my driving license there as well). Not sure where you got the picture from- for sure if you dive I. The motorway at 140 even with a Ferrari you get a fine

GParker 01.04.2021 19:08

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Simple rule: If you are in a city centre in Italy and not in a traffic jam then youíre in a ZTL :D

DL21 01.04.2021 19:09

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cinzia_t (Post 3291986)
The limit in the motorway is 130. Never heard of those speed limits in 40+ years that I lived in Italy (and got my driving license there as well). Not sure where you got the picture from- for sure if you dive I. The motorway at 140 even with a Ferrari you get a fine

actually the motorway can be up to 150 under certain conditions.
every border around here has that sign displayed as you enter italy.
the fact that you got your license in italy and drove for 40 years without actually knowing the rules, i believe proves my point.

also pigs would fly before you actually get a fine on italian motorways. at any speed. its EXTREMELY rare.

venetian 01.04.2021 21:41

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3291990)
actually the motorway can be up to 150 under certain conditions.

It could, but it's not. Anywhere.
https://www.clubalfa.it/131859-limit...-quando-e-dove

Quote:

every border around here has that sign displayed as you enter italy.
That sign is just obsolete and should be replaced. Here's the Italian limits as per actual law:
http://www.aci.it/i-servizi/normativ...-velocita.html
according to Wikipedia, the limits you reported are old limits from a 1977 law, which has since been superseded at least a couple of times.
Don't, don't, don't drive at 140 km/h on Italian motorways.
cinzia_t is just correct.

Also, this is an updated sign when you enter Italy from Austria:
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5596...7i13312!8i6656

Quote:

also pigs would fly before you actually get a fine on italian motorways. at any speed. its EXTREMELY rare.
Not so extremely, particularly on the network managed by Autostrade per l'Italia where the "Tutor" system is active (it's active again, after the suspension due to a software patent violation).
In my life it happened to me to drive above 130 km/h, but you have to know where and when. If unsure, don't!

@EPMike: in some places ZTLs are confusing for locals as well. Some of them have big signs with a lot of writings and complicated time schedules depending on time, day of week and so on. They're not designed as tourist traps, it's just that they are not able to make them simpler, probably because many categories demand special exceptions.

DL21 01.04.2021 21:53

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
I go down the A4 all the time at 200 through the whole Tutor section. Never had a ticket. The A9 more like 250. Along with a good deal other people. Never had a ticket. In fact in all my years of driving around Italy Iíve not once had a ticket or been pulled over. Only for pointless random carabiniere checks outside town. Had plenty of ZTL tickets though.

Iíve even been cheered on by police for drifting around a corner on a road section during a rally.

Wonderful country!

GParker 01.04.2021 22:14

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
I suspect the "Tutor" system has problems seeing tiny Swiss front number plates

DL21 01.04.2021 22:21

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GParker (Post 3292022)
I suspect the "Tutor" system has problems seeing tiny Swiss front number plates

italian plates are also tiny. i suspect it just doesn't work :)

Island Monkey 01.04.2021 22:27

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Slightly off topic, but before the days everyone had a satnav, I got totally lost in London due to the congestion charge zone. I made one wrong turn from my directions, and couldn't get back on route because every turn I needed to take was marked congestion zone. I just kept going which ever way it would let me..... hours I lost that day, and I've never driven in London since. :eek:

stuart1956 02.04.2021 08:57

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Axa (Post 3291834)
And not only Italy, all around Europe. Check this site before visiting a new city https://www.urbanaccessregulations.eu/

it is not a trap, it is to stop fools driving round when people are seriously ill

Matroska 02.04.2021 16:30

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nejc (Post 3291847)
Hm, last year I was following a navigation and an Italian car into the historical center of Merano searching for my hotel and misinterpreted the allowed hours to drive there. I needed few hundred meters that things clicked right in my head, and when I turned my motorcycle around, it was already too late. Few months later I got a fine of ca 80 euros.

Same here, but I was in Livigno

Off topic: very nice place, great food and extremely low fuel prices :eek:

DL21 02.04.2021 16:33

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matroska (Post 3292186)
Same here, but I was in Livigno

Off topic: very nice place, great food and extremely low fuel prices :eek:

So you can burn it all up with abandon on the ice drome :)

Murloc 02.04.2021 18:14

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
I mean it's not like they don't exist in switzerland, the signage is usually less complex here though.

Axa 02.04.2021 19:58

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart1956 (Post 3292062)
it is not a trap, it is to stop fools driving round when people are seriously ill

hahahaha, nothing related to covid. This is about making city centers more livable. This is about giving residents priority above tourists. So, only access to residents, delivery vehicles, buses and taxis.

greenmount 16.04.2021 08:57

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EPMike (Post 3291830)
Rant alert - no purpose other then venting.

as last year, due to corona, I could not make holidays overseas, we went couple of time to Italy - by car.

What we did not know about are the so called ZTL zones: Zona a Traffico Limitato

Unfortunately, fines arrive with quite a delay, so we kept driving into city centers, and have accumulated 3 fines so far. I fear more to arrive by post as time passes.

Has anyone else fallen into this tourst trap?

I know I should have known and all that. However, in Italy there are literally hundreds of signs in each intersection and these signs are easy to miss, in particular when you just other cars into the city center.

Also: does anyone know of a way to get a permit, similar to the Umweltplakette in Germany?


Funny rant from my point of view, always felt very relaxed there and never got a fine. Not even once. No "tourists traps", no random carabinieri BS. (maybe Swiss plates help lol)

But seriously, I can't wait for our next vacation in Italy, missed it a lot lately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axa (Post 3292240)
hahahaha, nothing related to covid. This is about making city centers more livable. This is about giving residents priority above tourists. So, only access to residents, delivery vehicles, buses and taxis.


This. Like TOTALLY.

NotAllThere 16.04.2021 09:14

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by venetian (Post 3292012)
Don't, don't, don't drive at 140 km/h on Italian motorways.

Quite right. You don't want to get done for holding up the traffic. In my experience, speed limits on Italian roads are just for decoration.

Spinal 16.04.2021 12:18

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 3296843)
Quite right. You don't want to get done for holding up the traffic. In my experience, speed limits on Italian roads are just for decoration.

Also for target practice...

In the firearms club I was a member of, there was an interesting chap from southern Italy, who had impressively good aim. I asked him where he learnt (expecting him to be ex-army), and his response was in the country roads with his brother. One would drive, and the other would attempt to shoot the road signs with the "lupara" (kind of like a sawn off shotgun)...

stuart1956 16.04.2021 13:01

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
should have stayed at home, like most people and had some respect for other people,

countchochula 04.05.2021 17:49

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Caught this post late. I'm looking for some feedback on how to handle an italian traffic fine being posted back to the USA which was my driver's license of record when i rented the car I supposedly got the ticket on.

Over a year ago, I rented a car in italy from autoeurope (which i think just parsed me off to europcar but at a better rate).

Having gotten a ticket a number of years ago in France on a long vacation, I try to be very cautious when I rent cars sometimes to the point where I feel like it pisses off the local/native drivers ;). But they're local and they know the rules and where speed traps are, so I also try to gauge how everybody around me is driving. If they have Italian plates and they're driving fast then I will drive either slower or to keep pace.

Anyway, I got a ticket a year ago in Bellagio. Autoeurope is a scam operation imho because they charge extremely high handling / service fees for routing the authorities to charge you the fine. It's like a double tax and autoeurope's fees are often as much if not higher than the actual fines for very little value add / work on their part.

Cut to the chase, I have someone periodically check my mail back home and by the time a ticket like this even finds me it's months after the initial deadline so you're already paying extra fees on top of the original fine and there is no way to contest them even if you wanted to.

Somehow or another the town of Bellagio has transferred my case to a personal lawyer in Firenze ;) That may be legit BUT why would the town / authorities of Bellagio (in Lombardy) contract out this service to some guy in Firenze? He keeps sending threatening snail mails to a USA address with progressively dire consequences including the police, collectors, etc. In the meantime the fines and threats keep going up b/c by the time i get word of them we're months into the cycle.

My thought is Bellagio just sold the ticket (like a bad stock) to some collector and he's using every trick in the book to try and collect. why would "Italy" push so hard to get the money from this one ticket so much. It would seem like they have other more important things. Otoh, maybe I'm gonna wind up in jail?

Thoughts. Should I be concerned based on similar experiences others here have had and Italy in particular? As I said this thing is over a year old at this point.

Thanks

Meerkat33 04.05.2021 23:54

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Yes it's common practice in Italy. I think you risk your car being seized if you try to cross the border, not sure about jail (if they can identify you of course, which is not a given in this case). It would have been better to pay asap. I think you can forget about it only after 5 years from the last angry letter from the authorities.

venetian 05.05.2021 15:40

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by countchochula (Post 3302576)
My thought is Bellagio just sold the ticket (like a bad stock) to some collector and he's using every trick in the book to try and collect.

It looks like, yes.

Quote:

why would "Italy" push so hard to get the money from this one ticket so much.
Well, Bellagio because it's a way to still get some money from a hard-to-collect we-don't-have-the-staff-for-this fine, and the private company because it's their business.

Quote:

It would seem like they have other more important things.
The country for sure :D but not these particular people.

Quote:

Otoh, maybe I'm gonna wind up in jail?
Not really sure about that. Foreign fines are still a grey zone in Europe, in your case there is even a US address involved... in any case traffic violations are not cause for jail, as far as I know.

https://www.yourtraveltoitaly.com/fi...-what-happens/

countchochula 05.05.2021 17:34

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Thanks for the responses people. I appreciate it!


I wish they had a way of getting those tickets / fines to foreigners quicker though. By the time they arrive they are already well past the first expiry date and the late fees are really absurd. I take full responsibility for not paying and making a situation worse once I am informed. But the fact I never even have a chance to pay the initial fine rate due to the delay of receipt of the ticket is extortion ;). They should bake that into the equation of the fines. How can somebody pay something on time if it arrives a year after the date of the infraction and you have no idea you even did anything wrong until that time!

jeysongonzalez 16.05.2021 16:39

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by countchochula (Post 3302890)
I wish they had a way of getting those tickets / fines to foreigners quicker though. By the time they arrive they are already well past the first expiry date and the late fees are really absurd.


Funny, I got mine from my trip to Venice 2 years later after that trip. Past the dates but I just payed and kept the receipt just in case (you never know these italians) and moved on with my life.


A lot cheaper that Swiss fines what comes to bother is that these fines from italy come in bunch.

venetian 16.05.2021 20:37

Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GParker (Post 3292022)
I suspect the "Tutor" system has problems seeing tiny Swiss front number plates

The system has been disabled in 2018 and 2019 due to a patent infringment lawsuit. It has been modified and it's being reactivated.
Now in 2021 I would always assume it's active.
Not saying it's actually triggering fines 24/7, but the people on shift decide it's "motorway day"...

https://it.motor1.com/news/366086/ri...o-controesodo/

If you're driving a car with foreign plates you know you have a chance of dodging the fine, but if you're driving a car with italian plates, e.g. a friend's, don't exaggerate too much...


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:44.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0