Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01.04.2021, 11:17
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 973
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 792 Times in 421 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Rant: ZTL in Italy

Rant alert - no purpose other then venting.

as last year, due to corona, I could not make holidays overseas, we went couple of time to Italy - by car.

What we did not know about are the so called ZTL zones: Zona a Traffico Limitato

Unfortunately, fines arrive with quite a delay, so we kept driving into city centers, and have accumulated 3 fines so far. I fear more to arrive by post as time passes.

Has anyone else fallen into this tourst trap?

I know I should have known and all that. However, in Italy there are literally hundreds of signs in each intersection and these signs are easy to miss, in particular when you just other cars into the city center.

Also: does anyone know of a way to get a permit, similar to the Umweltplakette in Germany?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01.04.2021, 11:23
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,787
Groaned at 2,368 Times in 1,722 Posts
Thanked 38,756 Times in 18,259 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 01.04.2021, 11:28
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is online now
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 3,297
Groaned at 40 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 4,427 Times in 2,045 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

And not only Italy, all around Europe. Check this site before visiting a new city https://www.urbanaccessregulations.eu/
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 01.04.2021, 11:38
kri's Avatar
kri kri is online now
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,877
Groaned at 19 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 1,628 Times in 837 Posts
kri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom
Was going to write the exact same. Not a tourist trap, just catches anyone who does not read signs and come on, this is quite common now in a lot of big cities that one cannot drive in the city center.

Chalk it up to experience and pay.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank kri for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 01.04.2021, 11:40
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 13,116
Groaned at 218 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 15,241 Times in 7,834 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom
And afaIk, the locals need to have those stickers as well?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01.04.2021, 11:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Luzern
Posts: 531
Groaned at 33 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 680 Times in 333 Posts
nejc has a reputation beyond reputenejc has a reputation beyond reputenejc has a reputation beyond reputenejc has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Hm, last year I was following a navigation and an Italian car into the historical center of Merano searching for my hotel and misinterpreted the allowed hours to drive there. I needed few hundred meters that things clicked right in my head, and when I turned my motorcycle around, it was already too late. Few months later I got a fine of ca 80 euros.
- it was my mistake
- comparing to Swiss fines I find that one low
IMHO, dense centers are usually better without too much traffic, so ZTL is a right thing to do. Maybe Italians could go for some other system (physical barrier) but it would be just more expensive and uglier. I guess it is on us, to change our behavior.
btw. Do you know, that success of humans is because of our ability to adapt to different environments. Challenging your brain to adapt to different cultures is actually really good for continual development, so, take it positive your brain will adapt to this Italian old "novelty", if you keep going there. And I think it is worth.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01.04.2021, 13:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 973
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 792 Times in 421 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
It's not a tourist trap, and are nothing new, they've been around for decades.

Tom
Really, How the hell did I not know about that.

Well, lesson learned - the expensive way, but hey. My mistake
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01.04.2021, 13:50
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,787
Groaned at 2,368 Times in 1,722 Posts
Thanked 38,756 Times in 18,259 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Officially since 1989, un-officially since 1984: http://transportchoice.org/wp-conten...le-Dec2016.pdf

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01.04.2021, 13:53
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 13,116
Groaned at 218 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 15,241 Times in 7,834 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
Really, How the hell did I not know about that.

Well, lesson learned - the expensive way, but hey. My mistake
Quote:
View Post
Officially since 1989, un-officially since 1984: http://transportchoice.org/wp-conten...le-Dec2016.pdf

Tom
Wrong perspective, EPMike. What a lucky guy you are!!

edit: Seems strange to me though. Drove to Italy a lot in 96 and knew nothing about this and was not fined either.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01.04.2021, 13:57
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 973
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 792 Times in 421 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Do you guys know how to register a hybrid vehicle (with swiss plates) for the zones which are based on emission rating?

All I found was a separate one for each city- which is quite a hassle
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01.04.2021, 15:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 769
Groaned at 84 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 678 Times in 378 Posts
DL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputation
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

there's no central system. the rules differ from place to place. in some places its time based, resident based, ticket based etc. very italian.

did you know the speed limits in italy depend on engine capacity? how logical is that?
Reply With Quote
This user groans at DL21 for this post:
  #12  
Old 01.04.2021, 16:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Luzern
Posts: 531
Groaned at 33 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 680 Times in 333 Posts
nejc has a reputation beyond reputenejc has a reputation beyond reputenejc has a reputation beyond reputenejc has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
Do you guys know how to register a hybrid vehicle (with swiss plates) for the zones which are based on emission rating?
All I found was a separate one for each city- which is quite a hassle
I suggest you to read the nice paper st2lemans had linked few post above, than you will understand the system a litte bit better, for example:

"The distinctive quality of ZTLs is that they restrict which vehicles can enter, but they do not prohibit all cars, as in pedestrian zones, and you cannot buy your way in, as with tolls or congestion pricing. The primary goal is livability not revenue."

I hope you do understand what you are asking for, i.e. a "a multipass" is the opposite of the idea of the system of ZTL. Maybe just accept the idea that driving with a car everywhere is soooo 20th century. It is year 2021.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01.04.2021, 16:54
jeroen's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich to Ticino
Posts: 254
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 188 Times in 101 Posts
jeroen is considered knowledgeablejeroen is considered knowledgeablejeroen is considered knowledgeable
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

One reason for driving full-electric: many of these zones are totally happy to have your space-ship-humming car in them

But yes, one has to watch out a lot if you are unknown to the area: GPS maps might reveal them (just like they always warn for the silly road-tax on swiss roads, while, if you live there, you are aware of that.... sigh) and otherwise, research before you go...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01.04.2021, 18:01
cinzia_t's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Basel
Posts: 164
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 102 Times in 62 Posts
cinzia_t is considered knowledgeablecinzia_t is considered knowledgeablecinzia_t is considered knowledgeable
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
there's no central system. the rules differ from place to place. in some places its time based, resident based, ticket based etc. very italian.

did you know the speed limits in italy depend on engine capacity? how logical is that?
The ZTL is established By the comune (=Gemeinde) and therefore does not follow any national rule.
The fact that the speed limit depends on the engine capacity in Italy is a fake news.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at cinzia_t for this post:
  #15  
Old 01.04.2021, 18:22
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 769
Groaned at 84 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 678 Times in 378 Posts
DL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputation
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
The ZTL is established By the comune (=Gemeinde) and therefore does not follow any national rule.
The fact that the speed limit depends on the engine capacity in Italy is a fake news.
fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:



lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank DL21 for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 01.04.2021, 18:45
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is online now
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 3,297
Groaned at 40 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 4,427 Times in 2,045 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:

lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.
Fuel economy? Pollution? A small engine (<1 L) sucks at fuel consumption if it's run at high RPMs to sustain 130 km/h.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01.04.2021, 18:55
cinzia_t's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Basel
Posts: 164
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 102 Times in 62 Posts
cinzia_t is considered knowledgeablecinzia_t is considered knowledgeablecinzia_t is considered knowledgeable
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
fake news you say? don't think so. i drive past a sign like this most days:



lot's of great things about italy. consistency of rules and rule enforcers not amongst them.
The limit in the motorway is 130. Never heard of those speed limits in 40+ years that I lived in Italy (and got my driving license there as well). Not sure where you got the picture from- for sure if you dive I. The motorway at 140 even with a Ferrari you get a fine
Reply With Quote
This user groans at cinzia_t for this post:
  #18  
Old 01.04.2021, 19:08
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 194
Groaned at 11 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 465 Times in 140 Posts
GParker has a reputation beyond reputeGParker has a reputation beyond reputeGParker has a reputation beyond reputeGParker has a reputation beyond reputeGParker has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Simple rule: If you are in a city centre in Italy and not in a traffic jam then you’re in a ZTL
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank GParker for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 01.04.2021, 19:09
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 769
Groaned at 84 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 678 Times in 378 Posts
DL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputationDL21 has an excellent reputation
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
The limit in the motorway is 130. Never heard of those speed limits in 40+ years that I lived in Italy (and got my driving license there as well). Not sure where you got the picture from- for sure if you dive I. The motorway at 140 even with a Ferrari you get a fine
actually the motorway can be up to 150 under certain conditions.
every border around here has that sign displayed as you enter italy.
the fact that you got your license in italy and drove for 40 years without actually knowing the rules, i believe proves my point.

also pigs would fly before you actually get a fine on italian motorways. at any speed. its EXTREMELY rare.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at DL21 for this post:
  #20  
Old 01.04.2021, 21:41
venetian's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Zuerich
Posts: 487
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 557 Times in 267 Posts
venetian has a reputation beyond reputevenetian has a reputation beyond reputevenetian has a reputation beyond reputevenetian has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rant: ZTL in Italy

Quote:
View Post
actually the motorway can be up to 150 under certain conditions.
It could, but it's not. Anywhere.
https://www.clubalfa.it/131859-limit...-quando-e-dove

Quote:
every border around here has that sign displayed as you enter italy.
That sign is just obsolete and should be replaced. Here's the Italian limits as per actual law:
http://www.aci.it/i-servizi/normativ...-velocita.html
according to Wikipedia, the limits you reported are old limits from a 1977 law, which has since been superseded at least a couple of times.
Don't, don't, don't drive at 140 km/h on Italian motorways.
cinzia_t is just correct.

Also, this is an updated sign when you enter Italy from Austria:
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5596...7i13312!8i6656

Quote:
also pigs would fly before you actually get a fine on italian motorways. at any speed. its EXTREMELY rare.
Not so extremely, particularly on the network managed by Autostrade per l'Italia where the "Tutor" system is active (it's active again, after the suspension due to a software patent violation).
In my life it happened to me to drive above 130 km/h, but you have to know where and when. If unsure, don't!

@EPMike: in some places ZTLs are confusing for locals as well. Some of them have big signs with a lot of writings and complicated time schedules depending on time, day of week and so on. They're not designed as tourist traps, it's just that they are not able to make them simpler, probably because many categories demand special exceptions.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank venetian for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
driving, fine, italy, ztl




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
rant rant rant (how do yo udeal with stress at work?) Squeeeez Complaints corner 26 02.11.2018 18:24
Help needed: anyone in Italy or coming from Italy cherry123 Travel/day trips/free time 1 03.10.2014 14:32
Rant about closing the rant about assisted suicide so early Medea Fleecestealer Complaints corner 2 19.06.2012 09:22
not quite a rant slammer Daily life 19 31.10.2011 19:05
Just want to rant Bambi Complaints corner 11 08.09.2006 18:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0