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  #21  
Old 05.04.2021, 20:11
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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WTF?

Tom
www.today.com/today/amp/tdna129820
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  #22  
Old 05.04.2021, 21:15
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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This forum has many, many, many threads with opening posts about noise, both by those who are annoyed by the noise their neighbours make, and those who find their neighbours to be oversensitive. It seems to be that the responses fall into these categories (said more or less nicely):.....
You did nice list, and kudos for it. But I have to tell you that you exaggerating a lot. Giving completely wrong message IMHO. Look, there is SIA norm 181, in German called "Schallschutz im Hochbau" or "Sound insulation in building construction" It is in use since 1976 (I think), of course with many changes later. Every renovated building and every new one has to be build according to it.
- talking in staircase is ok
- walking in shoes inside apartment is ok
- watching TV is ok
- talking with people inside your apartment is ok
All of this are noises that are part of normal use and any apartment has to be insulated enough that they are not disturbing. This is a norm. If building is built against the norm, the culprit will be found and he will pay for reconstruction. It is either architect or building company. Our office was once in such process, the windows had 3dB too low noise insulation. Btw, it as not our fault as investor ordered windows past us.
Contact noises is prevented between different parts of building, especially in staircase and in all ceilings.
for example, the noise isolation of walls inside apartment is 52dB (in some cases there are also higher and lower values), where whisper is around 30dB, conversation 60dB, vacuum cleaner 75dB. Yes, there are noises that travel differently, we are more sensitive to certain frequencies, but all normal use scenarios are covered. Same is with toilets or showers where it is taken special care that the noise doesn't travel between floors.
What you wrote is maybe valid for extremely old, extremely cheap buildings and they are slowly, but surely disappearing.
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  #23  
Old 06.04.2021, 10:54
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

When I first moved to CH, I was given a guidance pamphlet... not sure if it was a set of laws or just friendly guidance... but it included the 10pm thing.

I found it quite funny, as it included things like "don't flush the toilet or run a bath after 10pm, as the water draining can be noisy to neighbors below".

Similarly, hanging clothes to dry on the balcony on a Sunday was listed as a no-no.

You'll find that the usually onus is on you not to make noise. The fact that your landlord lives below you complicates matters a little bit, but not so much... you'll find that a normal tenant will quite quickly call the police on you for making noise after 10pm... if nothing else, because it documents it so when they formally complain to the landlord they have the report to back it up.

Noise insulation regulations aren't retrospective, so if the building is fairly old, you'll find walls are paper thin and conduct noise ...

Easiest solution: make less noise
Long term solution: move
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  #24  
Old 06.04.2021, 11:17
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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You did nice list, and kudos for it. But I have to tell you that you exaggerating a lot. Giving completely wrong message IMHO. Look, there is SIA norm 181, in German called "Schallschutz im Hochbau" or "Sound insulation in building construction" It is in use since 1976 (I think), of course with many changes later. Every renovated building and every new one has to be build according to it.
Yes exactly, in every building I have lived in and visited, those rules do not apply and thank goodness for that.
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  #25  
Old 06.04.2021, 11:34
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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What you wrote is maybe valid for extremely old, extremely cheap buildings and they are slowly, but surely disappearing.
Unfortunately, you're wrong about focusing on extremely old, cheap buildings. I know of newer buildings that also have poor noise insulation due to poor construction management which caused errors that are almost impossible to eradicate. Buildings built in the last ten years most probably have much better noise insulation but I know of many buildings from the 90s where noise is an issue.

Architects just didn't consider noise as an issue until recently. Unfortunately.
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  #26  
Old 06.04.2021, 11:37
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

Actually, we don't wear shoes in the house, but not for hygienic or noise reasons, rather comfort!

Tom
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  #27  
Old 06.04.2021, 11:40
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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...so if the building is fairly old, you'll find walls are paper thin and conduct noise ...
Walls are usually not paper thin, neither in old buildings nor in new ones. We are living in Switzerland not in Japan. And they conduct only contact noise, i.e. if you hammer on the wall. Just move your bed 1 cm away from the wall.

here are the sound isolation of typical walls:
110 mm unplastered wall 42dB
110 mm wall plastered both sides 45dB
220 mm wall plastered both sides 50dB
Cavity wall construction 50dB
330 mm Solid wall 53dB

60dB is talking, 20 dB is breathing, for a quite room it is usually predicted 30 dB.

In older buildings the problem of noise is mostly:
- through doors and windows,
- later installations, especially those running vertically
- nonexistent or with time ruined (contact) sound isolation between floors
Early concrete buildings, especially one built with light concrete elements are problematic. Even more when cutting them to install pipes, hence this famous rule about not using shower/toilet.
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  #28  
Old 06.04.2021, 11:52
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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Unfortunately, you're wrong about focusing on extremely old, cheap buildings. I know of newer buildings that also have poor noise insulation due to poor construction management which caused errors that are almost impossible to eradicate. Buildings built in the last ten years most probably have much better noise insulation but I know of many buildings from the 90s where noise is an issue.
Architects just didn't consider noise as an issue until recently. Unfortunately.
Sorry, anecdotal evidence is not worth much. I work in the field and I know very well that if something is made wrong the investor will go fully on everyone involved. It is really easy thing for them. As I mentioned, I was once in the process, they just hire a company who brings measuring device and let it inside a room for few days. Nothing complicated, and you dismiss the usual completely unreliable human factor. You got numbers. If they are higher, you have to pay if not, you are off the hook.
Architecture is not rocket science and most of the time following the good practice is enough.
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  #29  
Old 06.04.2021, 16:28
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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Sorry, anecdotal evidence is not worth much. I work in the field and I know very well that if something is made wrong the investor will go fully on everyone involved. It is really easy thing for them. As I mentioned, I was once in the process, they just hire a company who brings measuring device and let it inside a room for few days. Nothing complicated, and you dismiss the usual completely unreliable human factor. You got numbers. If they are higher, you have to pay if not, you are off the hook.
Architecture is not rocket science and most of the time following the good practice is enough.
I own a house that has noise insulation issues, hence my knowledge is based on experience. I know of other houses/buildings with similar issues.
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Old 06.04.2021, 16:34
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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I own a house that has noise insulation issues, hence my knowledge is based on experience. I know of other houses/buildings with similar issues.
But do you expect people to live silently in their homes because of these issues?
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  #31  
Old 06.04.2021, 16:40
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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Dear all,

I am facing a strange situation for me. The owner of my flat living just below me and she is super sensitive to sound.

Speak once to the phone a little bit louder, next day complaints, staying more than 10pm with friends (not having party or music) just hanging around, next day complaints, having a girl walking with high hills complaints...

I am so sorry but this is ridiculous, especially in the Covid period should be a little bit of understanding... we need to socialize not to sleep from 10 pm while watching alone Netflix.

It Is something i can do to defend myself. I gave her already my phone number to send me an SMS if she feels it is too loud and I am trying to be polite as the flat is super nice and i don't want to go away but i have the feeling is getting worst.

Is there something like an official DB limit? I was thinking to find and use a decibel meter as we need to define loud noise in this country.

Thanks
George
You are not banned form making any noise, but the noise does have to be reasonable and you do need to be considerate.

1) Speaking on the phone at any time is not banned but before 7am or after 10pm you should be keeping your voice as low as possible. If you are being loud on the phone late at night then it's not so reasonable.

2) Having friends around after 10pm is not banned... you can do it but just keep noise levels reasonable.

3) High heels in an apartment on a hard floor makes a lot of focused footstep noise and is obviously inconsiderate. You shouldn't need to be told this.

In the end you might not agree on everything with your neighbour but as long as you are being reasonable then you are entitled to live a normal life and she has to learn to live with a reasonable amount of noise.
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  #32  
Old 06.04.2021, 17:18
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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But do you expect people to live silently in their homes because of these issues?
That would be impossible. We try to find renters who understand the problem and take the necessary precautions. It really hasn't been a problem until now.
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  #33  
Old 06.04.2021, 17:51
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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I own a house that has noise insulation issues, hence my knowledge is based on experience. I know of other houses/buildings with similar issues.
I don't doubt it, all I am saying is: sound isolation is essential in building dwellings. It is defined in norms and it allows normal living, including talking, walking, defecating and showering 24/7.
Not being able to do it are problematic cases that will be slowly renovated to the standards. Same way as we got central heating, toilets and showers into every apartment.
I guess everyone should check the laws in its canotn, for Luzern is like that:
"Im Kanton Luzern existieren keine einheitlichen Vorschriften, rechtlich zwingend ist lediglich die Nachtruhe von 22.00 bis 6.00 Uhr."
There are no uniform regulations in the canton of Lucerne; the only legal requirement is that the hours are quiet from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.
So you can walk in high heels if you want, but probably in some other cantons you cannot (because this is a funny rule that I am hearing a lot, together with not showering or not using toilets etc)
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  #34  
Old 06.04.2021, 18:06
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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I don't doubt it, all I am saying is: sound isolation is essential in building dwellings. It is defined in norms and it allows normal living, including talking, walking, defecating and showering 24/7.
Not being able to do it are problematic cases that will be slowly renovated to the standards. Same way as we got central heating, toilets and showers into every apartment.
I guess everyone should check the laws in its canotn, for Luzern is like that:
"Im Kanton Luzern existieren keine einheitlichen Vorschriften, rechtlich zwingend ist lediglich die Nachtruhe von 22.00 bis 6.00 Uhr."
There are no uniform regulations in the canton of Lucerne; the only legal requirement is that the hours are quiet from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.
So you can walk in high heels if you want, but probably in some other cantons you cannot (because this is a funny rule that I am hearing a lot, together with not showering or not using toilets etc)
There was actually a court case regarding the use of noisy shoes inside an apartment, albeit the clog type of shoe. It was ruled as being an excessive source of noise and not permissible. High heels would probably be classed similarly if it were up to a judge to rule.
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Old 06.04.2021, 18:12
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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There was actually a court case regarding the use of noisy shoes inside an apartment, albeit the clog type of shoe. It was ruled as being an excessive source of noise and not permissible. High heels would probably be classed similarly if it were up to a judge to rule.
Years ago when I was living in the States, while I was in my 20's, I had an apartment with hardwood floors and would sometimes wear my high-heels in the house while getting ready for work. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I didn't even consider what kind of noise it was making for the couple below me. And then finally one day, they mentioned the noise it was causing for them (they mentioned it in a nice way), even waking them up in the morning, and I felt so bad that I had been so oblivious to it.

I think that's often the essence of the problem -- people being oblivious to their own noise. We usually don't hear our own noise the way others do.
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  #36  
Old 06.04.2021, 18:43
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

Also to add - this isn't a unique Swiss problem. I have a flat in London in an older building, and the building association has in the terms of the lease that we CANNOT put laminate or wooden floors.

If renovating, the apartment must have a moquette (carpet) fitted, with an underlay with a specific attenuating value. This is done because the ceilings have minimal noise insulation, so if you fit wooden floors you end up causing distress to the apartment below.

Imagine the opposite - you have a newborn, and just managed to get them to sleep, when suddenly someone starts making noise and wakes them up...
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  #37  
Old 06.04.2021, 20:15
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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all I am saying is: sound isolation is essential in building dwellings. It is defined in norms and it allows normal living, including talking, walking, defecating and showering 24/7.
Not being able to do it are problematic cases that will be slowly renovated to the standards.
All the improved building regulations are good and well, and it's great that progress is being made in this field, both in the legal limits set, and in the materials available and their effectiveness in reducing noise transfer.

However, OP and his neighbour are living in a building, now, that is already built. Some of his activities produce sounds loud enough to travel across into his neighbour's home, and that's why he's received suggestions of how to test what he's doing, and to tone things down. As Chuff wrote, OP is not banned from living and walking around and having friends over and talking on the phone; just that it's his responsibility to take reasonable measures to be considerate towards his neighbours. Reasonable, in this context, includes taking account of the actual limitations of the building as it stands now, given that whatever noise-limiting measures were originally built, they clearly don't suffice, in real life, now, to block those sounds.
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  #38  
Old 07.04.2021, 00:05
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

It's not just a neighbour though, she owns the flat. Maybe I'm biased, but I really don't think other people's notion of acceptable noise levels should concern me overmuch while they live in MY property. The OP said he likes the flat and doesn't want to move - well, I'm sure the owner of the flat feels the same.
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  #39  
Old 07.04.2021, 08:48
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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...

Conversations
Only very quiet conversations in the stair-well, or calling out of a window to downstairs. This at all times.
Juliet: "O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?"

Neighbour: "Oi ! STFU!"



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Even when these are set down in black and white, in some buildings a different practice becomes the norm. I lived in a building where, in general, everyone settled down quietly by 21h00, and that took quite a bit of adjustment.
Was this an old-people's home?

Seriously Doropfiz, I know you mean well in your posts but there's being considerate and then there's letting everyone walk all over you.

Sometimes we need to stand tall and not give in to the aggressors.
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Old 07.04.2021, 09:20
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Re: Sound Sensitive Owner right below my flat

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I am facing a strange situation for me. The owner of my flat living just below me and she is super sensitive to sound.
There are medical conditions which cause individuals to be sensitive to sound. Trust me as I speak from experience here, these can be very difficult to live with. That being said, it isn't a problem only after 10pm.

I am not convinced the owner living below you is "super sensitive to sound". If that was truly the case, I suspect she wouldn't choose to live below the flat she rents out.
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