Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 08.04.2021, 06:57
kri's Avatar
kri kri is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,734
Groaned at 16 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 1,463 Times in 761 Posts
kri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post



Just wow! If the Almighty business so wishes, please take pity on me the poor consumer and forgive me for my sin of not registering legalese written by lawyers and help me by not fleecing me of my money.

When a consumer does not question what is not right, businesses will continue their tactics unfettered. A consumer is not at the mercy of a business.

.
Suit yourself! I provided you a potential way out of a contract you signed and failed to adhere to. You are (I think?) an adult with ability to comprehend what you sign up for. Mobility even has this all in English which is not a given and their terms are pretty simple.

But go complain that it's not your own fault and it's the bid bad business fault instead if it makes you feel better!

Last edited by kri; 08.04.2021 at 07:43.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank kri for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 08.04.2021, 07:14
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 3,324
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 3,970 Times in 1,806 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
You can disagree with me; but calling me unethical is uncalled for.
If you call the company that expects you to stand by the terms of the single page plain English contract you signed unethical then I think it is a fair comparison.

You call it fine print, to me it is one of the shortest and clearest contracts I’ve seen.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank newtoswitz for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 08.04.2021, 07:58
Mica's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 856
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 1,106 Times in 488 Posts
Mica has a reputation beyond reputeMica has a reputation beyond reputeMica has a reputation beyond reputeMica has a reputation beyond reputeMica has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Several years ago they apparently had a policy that they would let you retroactively cancel if you had not used the new subscription (but this policy might have changed):
https://www.reklamation.ch/complaint.php?id=439
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mica for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 08.04.2021, 08:39
kri's Avatar
kri kri is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,734
Groaned at 16 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 1,463 Times in 761 Posts
kri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
Several years ago they apparently had a policy that they would let you retroactively cancel if you had not used the new subscription (but this policy might have changed):
https://www.reklamation.ch/complaint.php?id=439
Yes I have found them pretty reasonable! But it does require approaching them with a dose of humility which the OP seems to be missing. Don't see them being willing to help if accused of being "unethical" by someone who did not read the contract and potentially the follow up email.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08.04.2021, 08:54
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Basel
Posts: 61
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
hyper has no particular reputation at present
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
You use the term "fine print" several times, as if to suggest that it was somehow hidden. It wasn't. Your failure to understand what you signed up for is nobody's fault but your own.
I have covered this in post 15. The process is designed in a way that most folks who sign up for the trial will miss the point on auto renewal.

From the Mobility website where they introduce the trial subscription -

"TRIAL SUBSCRIPTION – THE NON-BINDING SUBSCRIPTION FOR BEGINNERS"

"Hop in with our trial subscription: you can try Mobility for four months without any obligation"

After you sign up, a mail is sent with a link to the contract.

As a consumer-friendly practice, it would be reasonable to bring things like auto renewal which includes a fee to the notice of the customer upfront and explicitly. Why not put it as a key bullet point under the trial section on the website?

While you can say it is my fault 'technically', hope the above helps understand where I am coming from.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank hyper for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,429
Groaned at 55 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,634 Times in 946 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
I have covered this in post 15. The process is designed in a way that most folks who sign up for the trial will miss the point on auto renewal.

From the Mobility website where they introduce the trial subscription -

"TRIAL SUBSCRIPTION – THE NON-BINDING SUBSCRIPTION FOR BEGINNERS"

"Hop in with our trial subscription: you can try Mobility for four months without any obligation"

After you sign up, a mail is sent with a link to the contract.

As a consumer-friendly practice, it would be reasonable to bring things like auto renewal which includes a fee to the notice of the customer upfront and explicitly. Why not put it as a key bullet point under the trial section on the website?

While you can say it is my fault 'technically', hope the above helps understand where I am coming from.
From what I've seen I would say it was misleading.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:05
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,429
Groaned at 55 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,634 Times in 946 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
You are (I think?) an adult with ability to comprehend what you sign up for. Mobility even has this all in English which is not a given and their terms are pretty simple.

But go complain that it's not your own fault and it's the bid bad business fault instead if it makes you feel better!
I haven't read the contract or anything, but there are people in society who struggle understanding things (posts on this forum generally go off topic very quickly because of this) and thus consumer agreements need to have a certain amount of 'idiot-proof-ness' for want of a better term.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:22
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 3,324
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 3,970 Times in 1,806 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
I have covered this in post 15. The process is designed in a way that most folks who sign up for the trial will miss the point on auto renewal.

From the Mobility website where they introduce the trial subscription -

"TRIAL SUBSCRIPTION – THE NON-BINDING SUBSCRIPTION FOR BEGINNERS"

"Hop in with our trial subscription: you can try Mobility for four months without any obligation"

After you sign up, a mail is sent with a link to the contract.

As a consumer-friendly practice, it would be reasonable to bring things like auto renewal which includes a fee to the notice of the customer upfront and explicitly. Why not put it as a key bullet point under the trial section on the website?

While you can say it is my fault 'technically', hope the above helps understand where I am coming from.
If that is the process then the contract sent after you sign up would not be legally binding, only the information provided before signing.

But actually their signup process says the following on a check-box that you have to tick with links to the contracts:

I accept the general terms and conditions and the privacy policy (read as PDF) as well as the Mobility contract (read as PDF)

Which seems completely standard to me, maybe you should have noticed / mentioned this instead of implying you didn't get given the contract?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Basel
Posts: 61
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
hyper has no particular reputation at present
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
I agree with points 1 and 2. They're reasonable and you're right. But, it makes no difference because there's still a contract. There's a certain uselessness about being reasonable and right when contracts are involved.
Agreed. This thread is a prime example of a few folks demonstrating the uselessness about being reasonable.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:29
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 3,324
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 3,970 Times in 1,806 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
I haven't read the contract or anything, but there are people in society who struggle understanding things (posts on this forum generally go off topic very quickly because of this) and thus consumer agreements need to have a certain amount of 'idiot-proof-ness' for want of a better term.
Quote:
View Post
From what I've seen I would say it was misleading.
Obviously if you don't read the contract you can claim it's misleading - as the OP did.

But since reading and understanding the contract is one of the signup requirements, how is this relevant?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:33
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Basel
Posts: 61
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
hyper has no particular reputation at present
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
If that is the process then the contract sent after you sign up would not be legally binding, only the information provided before signing.

But actually their signup process says the following on a check-box that you have to tick with links to the contracts:

I accept the general terms and conditions and the privacy policy (read as PDF) as well as the Mobility contract (read as PDF)

Which seems completely standard to me, maybe you should have noticed / mentioned this instead of implying you didn't get given the contract?
I am surprised you expect every consumer to read contracts like a lawyer while not expecting Mobility to take any responsibility whatsoever on the the misleading business practice.

Auto-renewal is an important point. Why can't they mention this clearly during sign-up that it will be an auto-renewal instead of mentioning it on Point 9 of the contract?

Why do you think the onus on the consumer (of which there would be thousand of normal people who might be in a similar situation) rather than the business who can engage with all their customers in a more transparent manner?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:50
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,266
Groaned at 28 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 3,018 Times in 1,398 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
I am surprised you expect every consumer to read contracts like a lawyer while not expecting Mobility to take any responsibility whatsoever on the the misleading business practice.

Auto-renewal is an important point. Why can't they mention this clearly during sign-up that it will be an auto-renewal instead of mentioning it on Point 9 of the contract?

Why do you think the onus on the consumer (of which there would be thousand of normal people who might be in a similar situation) rather than the business who can engage with all their customers in a more transparent manner?
I'm not trying to be condescending. I've also been stuck in contracts for things I don't want anymore. Hopefully, I've learned to read.

So, welcome to the concept of personal responsibility in CH. Adults are treated like adults. You can base jump from any mountain ridge you want or contact EXIT for assisted suicide and there's no nanny state telling you No, that's too risky. Same for contracts, there's the freedom to contract almost anything. But, all the freedom has a price, which is to read contracts like a lawyer.

Of course, one dedicates more attention to an apartment rental contract, a mortgage, job contract or an EXIT contract. Smaller things are treated like smaller things otherwise one goes crazy.

I think the constructive way out of this situation is to acknowledge they got you. Start thinking on a way to win this poker game where they have the best cards.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08.04.2021, 12:53
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,624
Groaned at 154 Times in 100 Posts
Thanked 7,666 Times in 2,615 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

I'm torn on this one... The T&C governing the contract are a single page, if you cannot be bothered to read a single page, then you should not sign contracts.

However, I agree that both in German and English, they use wording that could be understood as the test subscription having no further obligation attached. Mobility argues that they automatically convert the trial subscription into a full one for the convenience of its customers since the majority choose to continue after a trial period. Considering how much hassle this probably causes them, they should definitely consider making it an opt-in rather than an opt-out.

As previously mentioned, you are not the first person to have an issue with the opt-out and they state here that a retroactive cancellation is possible subject to you not actually using the new membership yet. You probably went in guns blazing rather than saying "sorry, I didn't realise this is how it worked, unfortunately I cannot afford to pay the full membership and would truly appreciate it if you could cancel it for me." This may make you look disorganised AND broke, but who cares what they think - it would make no sense for them to come after the money you say you don't have, the cost of doing so would exceed what they get from you.

Most of us have fallen into the auto-renewal trap and it amazes me how stubborn businesses are about cancelling. For me, it was the gym membership that I never used and didn't realise I had to cancel three months in advance and could only cancel before the start of the new full yearly contract. Because they were so utterly unhelpful (I ultimately had to go the route of arguing medical reasons for not being able to use the gym to get them to concede partially, they still made me pay three months but better than twelve), I will never again become a member there and don't recommend the place to people. It is really short-term thinking from businesses who insist on this rule, negative word of mouth spreads much faster than positive and most people forget what the reason for their friend's dissatisfaction was, they just associate the business with something negative.

However, if it is something where you cancelling without notice creates a genuine problem, such as for a class that requires at least four people to participate to cover the costs and they are only three without you, then I totally support charging the full amount. Same for the verbal agreement you make with hairdressers and other service industry staff: if you cancel less than 48 hours before the appointment or simply don't show up, thus making it almost impossible for them to find someone else to fill that now vacant time and compensate for the loss of earnings, they should be allowed to charge you. They don't because they know it will only create trouble, but you will usually find that they won't give you another appointment so easily. Obviously, if you are sick or there is some genuine emergency, then most are pretty understanding but some people are serial cancellers, there is always something... Kudos to all service industry staff who have the resolve to block such clients from making appointments in the future. There should be Google reviews for clients too...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Kittster for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 08.04.2021, 13:20
Murloc's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bern
Posts: 427
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 444 Times in 230 Posts
Murloc has earned the respect of manyMurloc has earned the respect of manyMurloc has earned the respect of many
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

I think what can to be said about your options for this issue has been said. I think the idea of telling them you have money issues is a good one, as they might cancel the contract instead of risking incurring in extra admin costs.

I however have to add that with a careless attitude to reading and evaluating contracts (you said yourself you don't read them in full), you are probably being royally screwed by your bank, credit card companies, 3a pension scheme and cantonal tax authorities. Meaning fees up the wazoo, large opportunity costs due do bad deals, and forgotten deductions.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Murloc for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 08.04.2021, 13:33
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Basel
Posts: 61
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
hyper has no particular reputation at present
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
However, I agree that both in German and English, they use wording that could be understood as the test subscription having no further obligation attached. Mobility argues that they automatically convert the trial subscription into a full one for the convenience of its customers since the majority choose to continue after a trial period. Considering how much hassle this probably causes them, they should definitely consider making it an opt-in rather than an opt-out.
Thanks for this. It is hardly a hassle for the customer to click an opt-in button. The current process is designed for such things to happen which I have a strong objection to.

Take explicit consent while renewal/extension rather than expecting each customer to go through each clause of a contract and putting the onus on them to cancel. ​

It keeps the interest of both the business and customer by making things more transparent and upfront. Less headache for all involved.

Quote:
View Post
You probably went in guns blazing
Maybe my initial post sounded like that as I cut right to the chase here instead of boring the forum with the niceties I exchanged with them at the beginning.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08.04.2021, 13:39
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 30,725
Groaned at 2,211 Times in 1,644 Posts
Thanked 36,944 Times in 17,496 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
CHF 279 including insurance. All this for a service I do not plan to use even once!
"Subscription fee of CHF 129 per year"

https://www.mobility.ch/en/private-c...l-subscription

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08.04.2021, 13:42
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 9,043
Groaned at 366 Times in 237 Posts
Thanked 15,377 Times in 6,655 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post

CHF 279 including insurance. All this for a service I do not plan to use even once!
Quote:
View Post
"Subscription fee of CHF 129 per year"

https://www.mobility.ch/en/private-c...l-subscription
From the same page
"Policy Deductible 300 (optional) CHF 150 per year (info)"
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08.04.2021, 13:45
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 30,725
Groaned at 2,211 Times in 1,644 Posts
Thanked 36,944 Times in 17,496 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
From the same page
"Policy Deductible 300 (optional) CHF 150 per year (info)"
So, not only did you sign on for a yearly subscription, you also signed on for the optional insurance!

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08.04.2021, 13:47
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Mies
Posts: 926
Groaned at 14 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 682 Times in 388 Posts
catandmouse has earned the respect of manycatandmouse has earned the respect of manycatandmouse has earned the respect of many
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Auto-renewing contracts are a fact of life here, so it's probably simply best to be prepared to deal with them. The more respectable companies send you a reminder a few days before the renewal/cancellation date (like the SBB with the 1/2 price abos), but many people don't seem to read e-mails (or snail mails for that matter) and claim they never saw the reminders.
Put yourself in the other position, all subscriptions auto-cancel unless you do something to renew them. You get on a train with an invalid ticket because you failed to renew your 1/2 price abo and then blame the inspector because you failed to renew your abo. As one of the other posters said, you need to take responsibility for your actions (or inactions in this case). You can't have it both ways.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank catandmouse for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 08.04.2021, 13:57
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 9,043
Groaned at 366 Times in 237 Posts
Thanked 15,377 Times in 6,655 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Automatic extension of trial subscription by Mobility

Quote:
View Post
From what I've seen I would say it was misleading.
Quote:
View Post
I haven't read the contract or anything,
So how did you conclude that it was misleading?

To be fair it's not explicitly mentioned when you sign up, but you do have to click the box saying you've read and understood the contract, which is, as previously mentioned, a single page, and contains the following clause:

Quote:
9. DURATION AND TERMINATION OF THE AGREEMENT AND THE RIGHT OF USE
The Mobility agreement for private customers remains valid for an indefinite period, provided that neither of the contracting parties provides notice of termination...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
extension, mobility, trailsubscription, unethical




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Non EU / L Permit / Extension 1 going on extension 2 tankdizzle Permits/visas/government 4 18.05.2017 20:36
Mobility to trial driverless cars in Zug Rob Transportation/driving 1 05.05.2017 11:16
EU tries to ban automatic and semi automatic weapons Sbrinz International affairs/politics 20 21.12.2016 17:53
Mobility trial subscription - 'no obligation'? Enohzee Transportation/driving 13 11.11.2015 16:23
Mobility subscription-related question TerminalServer Transportation/driving 0 30.03.2010 14:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0