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Old 19.07.2021, 22:25
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Irresponsible dog owner

My wife went out of our house to put the rubbish out. There were two dog owners and five dogs (without leads) running around barking. One of the dogs broke off and started running at my wife, who quickly went back into our house. A minute or so later we went out to explain to the owner that she needed to keep her dogs under control.

She laughed and started filming. Utterly failed to recognise that she is responsible for keeping her dogs under control and not running onto other people's lands.

That goes on social media, and I see it, and she'll find herself facing legal action.

Cue:
1. "Oh you should understand dog language - you're responsibility".
2. Your own fault
3. You're over-reacting,

Etc.

Anyway, the other dog owner seems to understand the law and she tried to defuse the situation and apologised. Maybe she'll explain it to the other owner. I do think the scrapping of licenses was a really bad idea.

Oh, and if you see such a video, please let me know.
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Old 19.07.2021, 23:26
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

I'm sorry this has happened. I hope your wife is OK.

There is no excuse for irresponsible ownership. None whatsoever.

In Baselland, you can file a report with the Veterinäramt of a dog who 'Anzeichen eines übermässigen Aggressionsverhaltens zeigt'.

Putting the owner's numptiness to one side for the moment, would you consider the dog's behavior to be excessive aggressive behavior'?

If so, the formula to make a report is 'Meldung von auffäligen Hunde', here:
https://www.baselland.ch/politik-und...20mit%20Hunden

If you do not think the dog's behavior falls within that parameter, you could still speak with the local police about the owner, stressing that it was the actions of the owner that are worrisome. Whether the police would take it seriously is anybody's guess.

A third option would be to speak with the dog owner again. If you decide to do so, the relevant bits of Baselland dog law are SGS 342, Art. 2, here:
https://bl.clex.ch/app/de/texts_of_law/342/versions/282

§ 2 *
Grundsätze
1
Hunde müssen so gehalten werden, dass sie Menschen nicht gefährden oder belästigen und Tiere nicht gefährden.
2
Hunde, die nicht unter Kontrolle gehalten werden können, sind generell an der Leine zu führen.


Were it me, I'd probably go for option 3. Sometimes simply quoting chapter and verse of the law is enough to get an irresponsible owner to at least try better in the future. Do not make any threats, as that could land you in hot water - just be factual, polite but firm. It is perfectly reasonable to ask the owner to leash her dogs in such situations, as in this incident she clearly did not have them under control.

And yes, a perfect example why mandatory dog and owner training is needed!

Hope a solution is found.
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Old 20.07.2021, 09:46
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

Thanks.

My wife was just shocked when the dog (small, yappy, fluffy thing) came running at her. It wasn't particularly aggressive. I think the main issue was that you want to feel safe on your own land and the owner singularly failed to recognise that she should simply apologise. Nothing much more to do really - the owners are all moving out, since the buildings are being demolished later this year.

I was bitten by a farm dog a few years ago, even though I did all the things you're supposed to do when a dog behaves aggressively. Finally drove it off by throwing stones near it. That one was reported.

Strangely, since then I've become more tolerant of dogs and have even said that I withdrew my opposition to getting one.
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Old 20.07.2021, 09:47
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

Sorry to hear this, NotAllThere. Having a dog run at you can be extremely scary! I hope your wife is okay.

The woman's response is baffling to me, her first instinct is to start filming? Terrible! I would be horrified if my dog had caused someone to feel uncomfortable or afraid.
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Old 20.07.2021, 10:18
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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One of the dogs broke off and started running at my wife, who quickly went back into our house.
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My wife was just shocked when the dog (small, yappy, fluffy thing) came running at her. It wasn't particularly aggressive.
Interesting how you clearly worded the first post to make it sound like it was a dog running aggressively towards her, then the second post clarifies that the dog was not a physical threat or even acting aggressively. Maybe your wife should work on her fear of dogs, if a small fluffy dog trotting up to her non-aggressively causes such reactive anxiety.

But yes, the owner handled it in the crappiest way possible and the filming thing is ridiculous.
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Old 20.07.2021, 10:45
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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Thanks.

My wife was just shocked when the dog (small, yappy, fluffy thing) came running at her. It wasn't particularly aggressive. I think the main issue was that you want to feel safe on your own land and the owner singularly failed to recognise that she should simply apologise. Nothing much more to do really - the owners are all moving out, since the buildings are being demolished later this year.

I was bitten by a farm dog a few years ago, even though I did all the things you're supposed to do when a dog behaves aggressively. Finally drove it off by throwing stones near it. That one was reported.

Strangely, since then I've become more tolerant of dogs and have even said that I withdrew my opposition to getting one.
Is it the first time in your entire life when a dog has run towards you, usually willing to be patted and get attention or simply because they're curious? Some dogs are very friendly, I wouldn't make such a big deal out of it. To me it does seem you are
- overreacting
- both you and your wife had a very sheltered life.
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Old 20.07.2021, 11:06
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

No, some people are afraid of dogs, whatever size. My sister is one of them, she knows it is irrational but hasn‘t managed to beat that fear (she was bitten by a dog as a child).
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Old 20.07.2021, 11:15
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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No, some people are afraid of dogs, whatever size. My sister is one of them, she knows it is irrational but hasn‘t managed to beat that fear (she was bitten by a dog as a child).
I get that, but us feeling extremely anxious and having a panic attack because of a dog/pet/whatever does not mean we were in real danger and can go sue people.
I'd like to see some people here trying though....
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Old 20.07.2021, 11:37
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

All y'all know I'm all about the dogs - but the owner was clearly in the wrong in this situation. NAT is right to be upset - and we responsible dog owners should be as well, because the behavior of the owner tars us all with the same brush.

We cannot excuse bad owner behavior by blaming the other person. Yes, if the dog was friendly there likely was no harm done - but that does not negate the fact that the owner was in the wrong, and it cannot, ever, excuse the owner's subsequent behavior.

Inconsiderate, irresponsible dog owners are why we faced such a public backlash and potential draconian legislation back in 2006. Those of you who were not there at the time probably don't know how close we came to losing much of the freedom our dogs have here. I was there, and it profoundly affected my view of how dog owners need to interact with those around us if we are to continue to be able to give our four footed friends a good life in crowded Switzerland where we all must share spaces.

To protect our dogs, we owners must be considerate of others. It's as simple as that.

A dog must be under control. It's not an onerous requirement. A good owner is always actively engaged with his dog when out and about.

With a well trained dog voice control is sufficient, unless one is in an area where leash laws are in force. Voice control means that the dog does indeed immediately obey when called away. If the dog can't be counted on to do that, then the dog should be leashed when other people or critters are present.

And of course, an owner is required to actively keep control at all times. If your dog approaches another person or critter without you, the owner, first asking if it is OK, you are in the wrong - regardless of how the interaction went.

No, a dog is not a robot. No one expects a dog to be a robot. Yes, mistakes can happen, especially as a dog is being trained. But a responsible owner immediately apologizes. Punkt Fertig. Had the owner done so in this situation, this would likely have been a non-event.

We have seen a degradation in dog owner's understanding of their responsibilities since the abolition of the federally mandated dog courses. Yes, the SKN was a flawed vehicle - but it was better than nothing. At least we all had the same hymnsheet from which to sing.

This trend in owner behavior, combined with a general increase in incivility in all areas of social interaction among everyone, everywhere, is quite worrying to me.

We dog owners need to up our game. Be a good neighbor. Be considerate. It's that simple.

---

At the risk of veering into broken record territory, here again is canton ZH's codex for dog owners and those who do not own dogs. It's a great document that clearly explains a dog owner's basic responsibilities when out in public, and it helps non-owners to understand safe behavior around dogs. This document should be read by everyone, in all cantons.
https://codex-hund.ch

And all dog owners need to understand the laws of their canton. There is far too much wrong information percolating out there - which is why too many owners fall short. Learn what is expected - and then use that knowledge when interacting with others. The Tier Im Recht foundation has compiled a convenient summary of all 26 canton's dog laws. The actual text of each canton's law is at the top of each cantonal page.
https://www.tierimrecht.org/en/legal...onal-Dog-Laws/

Additionally, animal welfare is a federal matter, addressed through various laws. A good place to start is the TSchV, articles 68-79 address dog welfare. We owners need to understand these provisions as well.
https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2008/416/de

---


Life is so much easier, and far more pleasant, when we all exercise a little consideration. It really is that simple.
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Old 20.07.2021, 11:46
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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Is it the first time in your entire life when a dog has run towards you, usually willing to be patted and get attention or simply because they're curious? Some dogs are very friendly, I wouldn't make such a big deal out of it. To me it does seem you are
- overreacting
- both you and your wife had a very sheltered life.
Wahrnehmung...for some reason the English terms as perception or awareness do not express what the German word does...at least not for me..it prevents us from expressing generalization like "is it the first time in your entire life" and accepting what the person feels without any other connections that most of the time have nothing to do with the situation...we do not know the background or the history of a person so many times "I am sorry you had to go through something like this" goes a long way.
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Old 20.07.2021, 11:58
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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Is it the first time in your entire life when a dog has run towards you, usually willing to be patted and get attention or simply because they're curious? Some dogs are very friendly, I wouldn't make such a big deal out of it. To me it does seem you are
- overreacting
- both you and your wife had a very sheltered life.
As a kid I was chased and bitten by a stray dog whilst on holiday in Egypt. I still remember the awful and painful anti rabies shots I had to have injected in my stomach. So hopefully I'm forgiven for being a little wary around mutts.
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Old 20.07.2021, 12:00
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

It is also illegal to film in these situations in Switzerland correct?

Even if it was a sweet puppy that wanted to attack with kisses, the dog shouldn't have been off the lead and the owner should have understood & especially should not have started filming without permission.
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Old 20.07.2021, 12:04
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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Wahrnehmung...for some reason the English terms as perception or awareness do not express what the German word does...at least not for me..it prevents us from expressing generalization like "is it the first time in your entire life" and accepting what the person feels without any other connections that most of the time have nothing to do with the situation...we do not know the background or the history of a person so many times "I am sorry you had to go through something like this" goes a long way.
Very sensible and smart, perceptive. I am not sure if there is a German word combining those 3 aspects, but just wanted to thank you for your post.

I was also bitten badly at 3, and there are things one cannot cognitively shift a long time after that. Doing a ton of contact sports helped, understanding animals, exposure and hanging out with people who love dogs - the trust slowly built up. But it took a while and with a conscious effort, so I understand when somebody is going through this. There are countries where stray dogs are an absolute nightmare, maybe it conditions people differently? Dunno.
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Old 20.07.2021, 12:05
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

I don't want your kid running to me and then licking me, the same way I don't want your dog touching me in any way. Friendly dog or aggressive dog!

Your dog, your responsibility, end of discussion!
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Old 20.07.2021, 12:39
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

Curiously, what are the dog laws here in CH in regard to a leash? Do they really have to be kept on a leash at all times while outside?

I ask that, in part, because a neighbor friend of mine often plays fetch with his dog in the soccer field next to our house. And I often see people with their dogs at the lake, allowing the dogs to swim, etc. None of that bothers me at all, I'm just curious what the laws actually are, I guess.
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Old 20.07.2021, 13:29
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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No, some people are afraid of dogs, whatever size. My sister is one of them, she knows it is irrational but hasn‘t managed to beat that fear (she was bitten by a dog as a child).
I am also one of those people.
I had three bad experiences with dogs when I was younger and so am very wary of them as an adult.
It doesn’t matter what size they are, two of the dogs were German shepherds and the one that actually bit me was a little ankle biting Jack Russell.
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Old 20.07.2021, 13:40
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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Curiously, what are the dog laws here in CH in regard to a leash? Do they really have to be kept on a leash at all times while outside?

I ask that, in part, because a neighbor friend of mine often plays fetch with his dog in the soccer field next to our house. And I often see people with their dogs at the lake, allowing the dogs to swim, etc. None of that bothers me at all, I'm just curious what the laws actually are, I guess.
Quote:
Dogs are to be kept within sight at a short distance in forests and at the edges of the forest as well as outdoors in the dark (Section 9 (2) HuG / ZH). Dogs are forbidden in cemeteries, in bathing establishments, on the break areas of school buildings, on playgrounds or sports fields as well as in places that have been signaled accordingly by the responsible authorities (§ 10 HuG / ZH).

Read more at: https://www.tierimrecht.org/de/recht/hunderecht/zurich/
A general leash obligation applies in publicly accessible buildings, on busy streets, in public transport, at train stations and bus stops as well as in appropriately signposted places (§ 11 HuG / ZH). In addition, dogs must be kept on a leash in publicly accessible areas if they are in heat, biting or have an infectious disease (Section 11 (2) HuG / ZH). For vicious dogs, there is also an obligation to wear a muzzle (Section 12 HuG / ZH).

Read more at: https://www.tierimrecht.org/de/recht/hunderecht/zurich/
from https://www.tierimrecht.org/en/legal...onal-Dog-Laws/
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Old 20.07.2021, 13:42
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

Thanks.
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:04
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

I was bitten by a dog aged 3, still have the scars on my face. Still much prefer dogs to humans, and own a bloody ridiculous wolf now
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:19
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Re: Irresponsible dog owner

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Curiously, what are the dog laws here in CH in regard to a leash? Do they really have to be kept on a leash at all times while outside?

I ask that, in part, because a neighbor friend of mine often plays fetch with his dog in the soccer field next to our house. And I often see people with their dogs at the lake, allowing the dogs to swim, etc. None of that bothers me at all, I'm just curious what the laws actually are, I guess.
Further from Traubert's excellent post:

No, leashes are not required at all times. This is one of the most misunderstood aspects of dog law, misunderstood by both dog owners and 'dog-distrustful' folks alike.

Hence why I bang on about knowing, and following the law - in both letter and spirit. Leash laws are a cantonal and local matter.

As in Traubert's TIR link, There are places where leashes are indeed required. For the most part, the cantons and communities decide where to forbid dogs, or where to require leashes. These are sometimes signed, such as nature conservency areas, but many are simply listed in the cantonal dog law, such as playgrounds, along heavily trafficked streets, forests during spring when wild animals are raising young, etc. There are also places, such as cemeteries and grocery stores, where dogs are forbidden, for obvious reasons. All of which a dog owner should already know. And if one doesn't already know, I'll refer owners to the Tier Im Recht summary linked above.

Canton SZ is the only canton with a general leash law in public spaces.

---

In fact, the TSchV Art. 71 actually says that dogs are encouraged to get off lead exercise. (The link is in my eariler post.)



Art 71, Bewegung:

1 Hunde müssen täglich im Freien und entsprechend ihrem Bedürfnis ausgeführt werden. Soweit möglich sollen sie sich dabei auch unangeleint bewegen können.

2 Können sie nicht ausgeführt werden, so müssen sie täglich Auslauf haben. Der Aufenthalt im Zwinger oder an der Laufkette gilt nicht als Auslauf.


But Art 71 is not a license to run riot - no, the owner must first determine that not only is this a place where off lead running is not prohibited but also that the place is appropriate in terms of how it is generally used, and the dog is sufficiently well trained and under control so as not to bother others.

The important part is 'entsprechend ihrem Bedürfnis' and 'soweit möglich'. If one's dog cannot reliably respond to voice control (or if the owner is not willing to pay attention at all times!) then he needs to be on lead in public. But one needs to find an alternative to fulfill his physical and mental needs.

By the way, if one does not have a private garden where a dog who needs to be on lead in public can run, consider joining a Hundeschule or Hundeverein to fulfull that need. Or, one might be able to rent a safe place by the hour. As an example, NF Dog's Home, a Tierpension in Bad Ragaz, has a large safe area that where one can do so. I met a woman from ZH there - her newly adopted Windhund could not yet go off lead, and so she goes the extra mile to meet his, and society's, needs.

It all boils down to this:

Yes, dog owners have the same right to use (many) public spaces as anyone else. But with rights come responsibilities. And any rights we have must be exercised responsibly. This last of course goes beyond dog ownership to all aspects of life. We live in a society, not a vacuum.

Last edited by meloncollie; 23.07.2021 at 11:24.
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