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  #121  
Old 07.09.2021, 20:39
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Don't know the specific procedures of Swiss to deal with unruly passengers. But in general, air carriers interrupt a flight when there's an unruly passenger whatever the cause is. If the captain acted like a pedant outside the company procedures, we'll know about it because certainly a lot of money was lost.

Not wearing the mask was not the problem, they even have some spare masks. It was not following instructions from the crew. Aboard a plane is not the optimal place to fight for freedom. Read terms and conditions before flying commercial next time. You give up the freedom of speech/expression/clothing, the freedom from being searched, the freedom to smoke, the freedom to drink up to your heart's desire, and the freedom to live your life without showering.
Unruly is being drunk or offensive. Unruly is not sitting in your seat quiety not wearing a mask in anticipation of the miniature Swiss Gipfeli.

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At 5:35 p.m. on Friday, a plane took off from Zurich to Belgrade. The passengers looked forward to their vacation or to return to their homeland. But the machine did not get into the air.
Four passengers refused to put on their masks. Coaxing was of no use.
The captain had no other option than to drive the plane back to the gate and call the canton police.

The police came on the plane with four men and arrested the people.
So obviously the plane had already pushed back and was taxiing.

by this point the staff have already been through the plane and visually checked all the passengers and sat down in the jumper seats. Why wait until this point to decide to expel four inappropriately clothed individuals?

Can you even imagine the havoc of a plane turning around 180 degrees on the taxiway, or the sort of idiot who would do such a thing?
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  #122  
Old 07.09.2021, 21:27
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Unruly is being drunk or offensive. Unruly is not sitting in your seat quiety not wearing a mask in anticipation of the miniature Swiss Gipfeli.

Marton wrote

So obviously the plane had already pushed back and was taxiing.

by this point the staff have already been through the plane and visually checked all the passengers and sat down in the jumper seats. Why wait until this point to decide to expel four inappropriately clothed individuals?

Can you even imagine the havoc of a plane turning around 180 degrees on the taxiway, or the sort of idiot who would do such a thing?
Every airline has an operation manual with procedures. I won't spend time looking for the one from Swiss, but ICAO documents are easily accessible.

The refusal to follow a lawful instruction of the aircraft commander, or of a crew member on behalf of the aircraft commander is unruly behavior. You don't have to punch a fellow passenger, piss on the seat or harass the crew to fall in the unruly passenger box. The intentional refusal and expressing the conduct of non-compliance is enough. Coaxing was of no use, sounds totally like refusing to follow crew orders. Hard to swallow, but being aboard a flying thingy means following orders of the highest ranking commander. Careful next time you try to use common sense aboard a plane. https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/R...c%2010117).pdf

If the captain made a mistake, disciplinary actions are on the way.A bored human rights activist might get interested on the case. But this is probably an investment for Swiss. A few thousands francs lost one day will minimize the frequency of similar events in the future.

It's also possible that the whole damned thing is overreaction, but that's the quirkiness of local culture. Idiotic? Open to discussion. Legal? 100%.
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  #123  
Old 07.09.2021, 21:43
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

I was abused by a fellow passenger for not having my mask covering my nose. When explaining to him that the mask was useless he proceeded to verbally abuse me for the rest of the bus ride. I put my head phones on, flipped him off and just looked out of the window. Idiot was red with anger, but then I am in Geneva so it was just some gallic posturing on his behalf - had he physically assaulted me he would have ran a higher risk of contamination

But then there are plenty of usefull idiots who can't be bothered trying to understand whether a law makes sense or not. Masks, if not put properly or changed frequently are useless, in other words except for a pacifier making you feel better about yourself it does bugger all. For the elderly go get the vaxx, for the youth get on with your life, catch it and then help stop the spread by getting our population to herd immunity. No need for useless masks.

My wife is vaxxed that's her choice, I am not that's my choice. My kids will NOT be vaxxed because when every winter old people get vaxxed you don't do this to kids who have no risk of dying of the virus - same with this virus. Kids don't die of it. A vaccine is never full proof, so why add a risk to your life that is unecessary.

You don't stop the spread by getting vaxxed - so you are not a liability to society by not getting the jab. When you realise old people who are most at risk are getting the virus and dying from it make the laws and big pharma has found a forever revenue stream, it makes you question the current legislation. Questioning is healthy, the current dictatorship on debate is frightening.

Looking in spite at someone because they are not masked might not deserve the reaction you got, but at the same time maybe you'll think twice about having a hollier than though attitude towards others who might not have the same believes as you.
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  #124  
Old 07.09.2021, 21:51
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

All you had to do was pull the mask over your nose. That's it. Your attitude is disappointing.
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  #125  
Old 07.09.2021, 22:45
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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...you don't do this to kids who have no risk of dying of the virus - same with this virus. Kids don't die of it.
2 under 10 year olds have died of covid. 375 have been hospitalised.
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A vaccine is never full proof, so why add a risk to your life that is unecessary.
No, a vaccine isn't full proof - but it's better than not. So why add a risk to your life by not getting vaccinated?

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You don't stop the spread by getting vaxxed
You don't stop it, but you significantly reduce the spread. About 50% - that instead of passing it on to 2 other people, you pass it on only to 1. That take you from exponential to linear growth.
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so you are not a liability to society by not getting the jab
Yes you are.
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  #126  
Old 07.09.2021, 22:59
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Is there some risk that I get upset about current conditions by reading him and get motivated to take down the system?
Huuuuge.
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  #127  
Old 08.09.2021, 03:11
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Well, there is not much you can do.
The other person who is not wearing a mask can only be asked to wear a mask.
If he does not comply, you can inform the driver, thats all.
The driver has the right , to exclude the passenger, who does not comply to the current rules or call the police if he does not exit or wear a mask when the driver ask him to do so.
I think the pressure for those people who refuse to get vaccinated or tested to get acces to certain areas will rise and some people dont care about a fast end to the pandemic .
Difficult for drivers to enforce a mask policy without constant altercations.

I donít understand non-mask wearing on a bus. It seems an obvious / easy thing to comply with.

Perhaps he was vaccinated and felt he had no need to wear.
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  #128  
Old 08.09.2021, 07:09
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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I don’t understand non-mask wearing on a bus
I put it down to childish rebellion. Rebels without a clue. Funny it's the pilot who was posturing as a hero and delaying the flight - not four brave personal freedom warriors...

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Perhaps he was vaccinated and felt he had no need to wear.
Funny. The poster above thought vaccination doesn't prevent spread (implication, it makes no difference to spread). It reduces spread by about 50%, but doesn't eliminate it.

The base rate (R0) of covid-19 is now around 5.7. 1 person, with no other measures, will infect 5-6 others. Vaccination reduces this to 2-3, which is pretty significant and with other measures - such as wearing masks properly on buses and planes, and not exposing your nose, social distancing, contact tracing etc. - brings R below 1. Currently it's at about 1. If it can get low by greater compliance (reduced irrational stupidity, waaaaah I don't wanna wear a mask), then it will die out.

Of course with constant reintroduction from surrounding nations*, it's going to take a while, but why due to some spurious notion of personal freedom (or lack of a sense of social responsibility), make it take longer?



* Austria 1.1, Germany 1.8, Italy 1.0, France 0.8
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  #129  
Old 08.09.2021, 07:45
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Difficult for drivers to enforce a mask policy without constant altercations.

I don’t understand non-mask wearing on a bus. It seems an obvious / easy thing to comply with.

Perhaps he was vaccinated and felt he had no need to wear.
What's is not to understand? People who purposefully refuse to wear masks in places where the law says you must do so are misguided deiusionals with psychological problems who think they are making some kind of societal stand against whatever notion of tyranny and injustice they have convinced themselves of.
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  #130  
Old 08.09.2021, 08:10
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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What's is not to understand? People who purposefully refuse to wear masks in places where the law says you must do so are misguided deiusionals with psychological problems who think they are making some kind of societal stand against whatever notion of tyranny and injustice they have convinced themselves of.
Maybe you think Rosa Parks was a misguided delusional too ?
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  #131  
Old 08.09.2021, 08:14
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Every airline has an operation manual with procedures. I won't spend time looking for the one from Swiss, but ICAO documents are easily accessible.

The refusal to follow a lawful instruction of the aircraft commander, or of a crew member on behalf of the aircraft commander is unruly behavior. You don't have to punch a fellow passenger, piss on the seat or harass the crew to fall in the unruly passenger box. The intentional refusal and expressing the conduct of non-compliance is enough. Coaxing was of no use, sounds totally like refusing to follow crew orders. Hard to swallow, but being aboard a flying thingy means following orders of the highest ranking commander. Careful next time you try to use common sense aboard a plane. https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/R...c%2010117).pdf

If the captain made a mistake, disciplinary actions are on the way.A bored human rights activist might get interested on the case. But this is probably an investment for Swiss. A few thousands francs lost one day will minimize the frequency of similar events in the future.

It's also possible that the whole damned thing is overreaction, but that's the quirkiness of local culture. Idiotic? Open to discussion. Legal? 100%.
Normally airline staff check that people are doing the right thing during boarding and before pushback. The above story clearly says the plane had left the gate and had to return . At that point I don’t think staff are checking masks any more. I call BS on this story .

At this point if a police intervention was required they would board the plane on the asphalt . The logistics of returning a plane to gate are just too disruptive
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  #132  
Old 08.09.2021, 08:20
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Maybe you think Rosa Parks was a misguided delusional too ?
The 1955-Chuff definitely did.
The 2021-Chuff of course is woke and would never ..... as it's not en vogue.
The 2050-Chuff .... well, we'll find out then what that Chuff will vehemently and aggressively defend then. I'm sure EF will still exist but we will have to keep track of his handle-changing habit if we want to do a proper statistics.
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  #133  
Old 08.09.2021, 08:34
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Maybe you think Rosa Parks was a misguided delusional too ?

No, I think you are delusional for equating Rosa Parks, a female campaigner against racial equality in the USA, to people not wearing masks on public transport during a pandemic. To even attempt to make this link it shows that you have lost the plot and are of the exact kind of misguided folk I am referring to.

You, TonyClifton, terrifisch, FairDinkum, Cliinimuus, Svenca et al are the forums highly vocal minority of delusional and disturbed (to varying degrees) individuals who would be (and may already have been) banned from other forms of social media and (if they already aren't) socially ostracised for expressing this kind of anti-mask, anti-vax and anti-scientific misinformation. EF seem to have given this hardcore subset of misguided folks a home and platform that allows them to go to town and spend all day plastering the forum with all of the political and medical conspiracy and anti-government nonsense they have convinced themselves is true. Lets see how long it can last.

Last edited by Chuff; 08.09.2021 at 12:59. Reason: Typo and restructuring due to inserting wrong quote
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  #134  
Old 08.09.2021, 10:50
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

Chuff for moderator!

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No, I think you are delusional for equating Rosa Parks, a female campaigner against racial equality in the USA, to delusional people not wearing masks on public transport during a pandemic. To even make this link it shows that you have lost the plot and are of the exact kind of delusionals I am referring to.

You, TonyClifton, terrifisch, FairDinkum, Cliinimuus, Svenca et al, you are the forums vocal minority of delusional and disturbed (to varying degrees) individuals who would be (and may already have been) banned from other forms of social media and (if they already aren't) socially ostracised for expressing this kind of anti-mask, anti-vax and anti-scientific misinformation. EF seem to have given this hardcore subset of misguided folks a home and platform that allows them to go to town and spend all day plastering the forum with all of the political and medical conspiracy and anti-government nonsense they have convinced themselves is true. Lets see how long it can last.
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  #135  
Old 08.09.2021, 10:50
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Normally airline staff check that people are doing the right thing during boarding and before pushback. The above story clearly says the plane had left the gate and had to return . At that point I don’t think staff are checking masks any more. I call BS on this story .

At this point if a police intervention was required they would board the plane on the asphalt . The logistics of returning a plane to gate are just too disruptive
There's a lot of things we ignore and common sense is useless. Commercial flights are one of the most regulated things in the world.

Once again, I'm not familiar with the specific Swiss operational procedures, but there's something called the sterile flight deck.
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/...ight_Deck_Rule

In plain language, it's don't interrupt the pilots until the plane is above 10K feet. Cabin crew must let the pilots flow and follow their memorized procedures without interruptions because distractions cause accidents. A gross simplifications but all what cabin crew can tell to pilots is "door is closed and everyone seated". Maybe, "here's your coffee" is acceptable but no more.

While the plane is at the gate, pilots are quite busy going through the pre-flight checklists. It's feasible that cabin crew tried to manage the situation. Cabin crew is free to roam around the cabin while taxiing. They may have explained the requirements, passengers acknowledged receiving the message and confirmed the non-compliance was voluntary. At that point, cabin crew may have decided to brake the sterile flight deck rule, tell the pilots about the issue and pilots decided to interrupt the flight.

Don't worry about the disruption parking somewhere and the police arriving. When you buy a ticket the terms and conditions state than you agree to follow crew orders. So, the liability of a disruption falls entirely on the unruly passenger(s). Sometimes when the passengers still feel entitled after being removed from the plane, airlines send the invoice of the incurred costs of the disrupted flight. At this point, unruly passengers suddenly find the whole thing reasonable.
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  #136  
Old 08.09.2021, 11:01
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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There's a lot of things we ignore and common sense is useless. Commercial flights are one of the most regulated things in the world.

Once again, I'm not familiar with the specific Swiss operational procedures, but there's something called the sterile flight deck.
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/...ight_Deck_Rule

In plain language, it's don't interrupt the pilots until the plane is above 10K feet. Cabin crew must let the pilots flow and follow their memorized procedures without interruptions because distractions cause accidents. A gross simplifications but all what cabin crew can tell to pilots is "door is closed and everyone seated". Maybe, "here's your coffee" is acceptable but no more.

While the plane is at the gate, pilots are quite busy going through the pre-flight checklists. It's feasible that cabin crew tried to manage the situation. Cabin crew is free to roam around the cabin while taxiing. They may have explained the requirements, passengers acknowledged receiving the message and confirmed the non-compliance was voluntary. At that point, cabin crew may have decided to brake the sterile flight deck rule, tell the pilots about the issue and pilots decided to interrupt the flight.

Don't worry about the disruption parking somewhere and the police arriving. When you buy a ticket the terms and conditions state than you agree to follow crew orders. So, the liability of a disruption falls entirely on the unruly passenger(s). Sometimes when the passengers still feel entitled after being removed from the plane, airlines send the invoice of the incurred costs of the disrupted flight. At this point, unruly passengers suddenly find the whole thing reasonable.
Airlines like Swiss are totally concerned about their reputation .

I was myself once involved in a minor incident in which in hindsight I admit they were right and I was wrong. They first came on totally inflexible and threatened the sky and worse , but as soon as I started pushing back on social media and other people started reacting they were falling over themselves to apologize and I even got 400 CHF .

People in that industry don’t have balls . If they did they would be hitting hard at the government for such destructive and pointless restrictions . Instead they act like chameleons and bend to the path of least resistance .
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  #137  
Old 08.09.2021, 11:17
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Airlines like Swiss are totally concerned about their reputation .

I was myself once involved in a minor incident in which in hindsight I admit they were right and I was wrong. They first came on totally inflexible and threatened the sky and worse , but as soon as I started pushing back on social media and other people started reacting they were falling over themselves to apologize and I even got 400 CHF .

People in that industry donít have balls .
Let's bet a few beers on the following scenarios, feel free to ad:

1) We never read another article about the incident because the passengers don't want to spend more energy on this. And, it's intelligent to just run away and disappear because if Swiss (air company) and Switzerland (judicial system) drop the book on them it won't be nice.

2) Swiss sends the invoice to passengers and a reminder that distracting the pilots endangers the operation and that might be related to breaking a few laws in Switzerland.

3) Lots of likes in FB and twitter supporting the passengers scare the ball-less Swiss managers and they fall over themselves to apologize.

4) Lots of likes in FB and twitter by concerned citizens supporting Swiss. The tyranny of likes is a 2-way street.

I choose option 1 for 4 beers, and option 4 for 2 beers.
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  #138  
Old 08.09.2021, 11:43
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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Let's bet a few beers on the following scenarios, feel free to ad:

1) We never read another article about the incident because the passengers don't want to spend more energy on this. And, it's intelligent to just run away and disappear because if Swiss (air company) and Switzerland (judicial system) drop the book on them it won't be nice.

2) Swiss sends the invoice to passengers and a reminder that distracting the pilots endangers the operation and that might be related to breaking a few laws in Switzerland.

3) Lots of likes in FB and twitter supporting the passengers scare the ball-less Swiss managers and they fall over themselves to apologize.

4) Lots of likes in FB and twitter by concerned citizens supporting Swiss. The tyranny of likes is a 2-way street.

I choose option 1 for 4 beers, and option 4 for 2 beers.
How about scenario 3 . Try to sweep the whole incident under the rug and try to get into the news for doing rsomething that brings people together rather than divide them . Make friends rather than enemies and make everybody want to like Swiss. And pencil something into the pilots annual appraisal to remind him that the company’s reputation rests on the shoulders of people like him , and that as a plot he’s supposed to be intelligent and mindful.
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Old 08.09.2021, 11:52
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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How about scenario 3 . Try to sweep the whole incident under the rug and try to get into the news for doing rsomething that brings people together rather than divide them . Make friends rather than enemies and make everybody want to like Swiss. And pencil something into the pilots annual appraisal to remind him that the companyís reputation rests on the shoulders of people like him , and that as a plot heís supposed to be intelligent and mindful.
I agree. But that's theory. In reality (and I know from a few pilots) the job is almost gone - so many are desperately waiting for a collegue pilot to make one single mistake these days. Like going against the directives and having a whole crew and a plane full of passangers as witnesses.
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  #140  
Old 08.09.2021, 12:07
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Re: Abused for wearing mask on Bus!

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I agree. But that's theory. In reality (and I know from a few pilots) the job is almost gone - so many are desperately waiting for a collegue pilot to make one single mistake these days. Like going against the directives and having a whole crew and a plane full of passangers as witnesses.
The rules do by and large have a lot of room for interpretation .

For example the rules say that pets in cabin must remain under the seat during take off and landing . Only this is the most stressful part of the flight for furry friends . Some cabin crews have understanding and allow you to have them on your lap . Others will throw the rule book at you if you try .

The rules also say you’re suppose to remain in your seat and wearing a seat belt until the plane has come to a complete stop at the gate . In reality half the passengers are already rummaging in their overhead lockers long before that . I’ve never seen a flight crew threaten anybody in a situation like that .

So there is obvously a high degree in permeability of the rule book.
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