Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 11.09.2021, 16:51
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,259
Groaned at 312 Times in 268 Posts
Thanked 23,687 Times in 9,633 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
If you consider any/all who disagree with you as "nutters" than you are just fueling the fire
Only if you say it.

But I think that it's ok to consider some people to be deluded, lacking in critical thinking skills, attracted to conspiracy theories, unable to do basic maths and/or being utterly irrational. While of course, being perfectly sane.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #182  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:04
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
Only if you say it.

But I think that it's ok to consider some people to be deluded, lacking in critical thinking skills, attracted to conspiracy theories, unable to do basic maths and/or being utterly irrational. While of course, being perfectly sane.
Couldn’t agree more. Those people lacking in critical thinking, attracted to conspiracy theories, unable to do basic math, and/or being utterly irrational are not necessarily crazy. I do label them “stupid” in my head (never calling them that, of course), and simply ignore them. If they are very active in a thread, I skip the thread. There are 101 other threads behind that one where I could join for a little chat. ‘cause I’m THAT cool.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #183  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:08
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern
Posts: 2,355
Groaned at 442 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 4,940 Times in 1,784 Posts
Susie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
The difference is nobody banned them from posting but they banned people with different opinions like myself, TC, CodPeace and many others who never once used foul language or insulted anybody on this forum unlike some members who are still tolerated under new management.

There are far more opposing views on the forum because the Supreme Soviet leadership is gone.
You baited and trolled ... when I expressed concern at the Xmas markets in Bern due to my risk category, you laughed at me and opened a thread trying to get people to go with you to the markets.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
  #184  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:10
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,945
Groaned at 619 Times in 524 Posts
Thanked 22,171 Times in 11,634 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Although the Reddit OP has been suspended the thread is still open and now getting quite heated, tempting to comment on it but I really do not want to join Reddit.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:19
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
You baited and trolled ... when I expressed concern at the Xmas markets in Bern due to my risk category, you laughed at me and opened a thread trying to get people to go with you to the markets.
I laughed at your logic that found people visiting the Xmas market dangerous just because it made your going out more difficult.

Basically you are pro lock down and OK for restrictive measures for other people apart from yourself.

Yes I still laugh at your logic
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank V__ for this useful post:
This user groans at V__ for this post:
  #186  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern
Posts: 2,355
Groaned at 442 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 4,940 Times in 1,784 Posts
Susie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
I laughed at your logic that found people visiting the Xmas market dangerous just because it made your going out more difficult.

Basically you are pro lock down and OK for restrictive measures for other people apart from yourself.

Yes I still laugh at your logic
I was absolutely terrified... and you laughed at my pain and still do. You deserved your ban
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
  #187  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:38
My2pups's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Used to be Zurich
Posts: 1,706
Groaned at 94 Times in 64 Posts
Thanked 1,989 Times in 870 Posts
My2pups has a reputation beyond reputeMy2pups has a reputation beyond reputeMy2pups has a reputation beyond reputeMy2pups has a reputation beyond reputeMy2pups has a reputation beyond reputeMy2pups has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Funny, that... but if it helps you to sleep at night, then so be it. As I only have met a handful of Efers IRL, I prefer to think of posters who I disagree with as (potentially) wrong but I am open to having my mind changed about things as "the science" evolves.

But "deluded, lacking in critical thinking skills, attracted to conspiracy theories, unable to do basic maths and/or being utterly irrational" not really my place to judge when the only contact I have is from EF.

Quote:
View Post
Only if you say it.

But I think that it's ok to consider some people to be deluded, lacking in critical thinking skills, attracted to conspiracy theories, unable to do basic maths and/or being utterly irrational. While of course, being perfectly sane.
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:39
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
I laughed at your logic that found people visiting the Xmas market dangerous just because it made your going out more difficult.

Basically you are pro lock down and OK for restrictive measures for other people apart from yourself.

Yes I still laugh at your logic
I remember that as one of the most cringe-worthy responses I had seen in my 15+ years at EF. Because you didn’t agree with someone’s concerns (or fears, or worries), you decided to mock them by pretending to organize an outing at said event. And you still “laugh” at them.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #189  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:45
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,458
Groaned at 318 Times in 220 Posts
Thanked 6,935 Times in 2,941 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
Although the Reddit OP has been suspended the thread is still open and now getting quite heated, tempting to comment on it but I really do not want to join Reddit.
Can't even read more than the first 20 or so comments without being asked to register.
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:46
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
I was absolutely terrified... and you laughed at my pain and still do. You deserved your ban
You were absolutely terrified for people to go out and socialize yet that didn't prevent you from going out... In fact the problem was you found it more difficult to go out if there were people outisde

So you want to go out but not other people...
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:48
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
I remember that as one of the most cringe-worthy responses I had seen in my 15+ years at EF. Because you didn’t agree with someone’s concerns (or fears, or worries), you decided to mock them by pretending to organize an outing at said event. And you still “laugh” at them.
If you are affraid or concerned, you stay at home.

You don't say everybody else should stay home so you can go out

Yes it is still very funny as today we see those fears were completly uncalled for. But that was big media fault, I can understand some people fell for it
Reply With Quote
This user groans at V__ for this post:
  #192  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:52
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
If you are affraid or concerned, you stay at home.

You don't say everybody else should stay home so you can go out

Yes it is still very funny as today we see those fears were completly uncalled for. But that was big media fault, I can understand some people fell for it
Oh, mate, I’m not even argumenting for or against the topic. I was rather appalled to see an adult purposefully mocking someone else. I can understand child bullies, but an adult acting as a bully, laughing at someone else’s fears and digging in…I can’t.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #193  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:57
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
Oh, mate, I’m not even argumenting for or against the topic. I was rather appalled to see an adult purposefully mocking someone else. I can understand child bullies, but an adult acting as a bully, laughing at someone else’s fears and digging in…I can’t.
You are purposefully changing the narrative. But that's OK, you have an agenda

I would never mock or laugh at somebody who had genuine fear for their wellbeing of going outside during pandemic.

But I will laugh at their logic ALL DAY LONG when you "fear" for your wellbeing of going outside just because everybody else can go and you rather want them to be confined in their own home so you can enjoy your walk alone.

So yeah, if you advocate restrictions on movement for general public so you can go take a walk, I WILL MOCK YOU ALL DAY LONG
__________________
"FAQ is not binding."
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 11.09.2021, 18:07
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Mocking is not useful when having a discussion, as your counterpart will shut down, or switch to ad hominems as well. If you don’t even respect the person, I understand the human nature to want to make fun of them. I can control that side of my personality, and will refrain from it. Because it’s not the right thing to do to mock other people, least of all publicly.

On the other hand, I do not have an agenda. In March, when the shutdowns rolled out, I volunteered at the Zivilschutz to deliver meals for Spitex (for older people who still live at home) during my extended lunch breaks, for 2 months. I had more alcohol in my hands that I ever downed in my 30+ years of adulthood. I paid for my disposable gloves myself, as Spitex would only give me 1 pair per week. I wasn’t afraid, but I was concerned, so I was careful. I didn’t enjoy skipping lunch for 2 months, or having to work longer afternoons to compensate for my missed midday working time, so I can’t say that I cheered for lockdowns. I don’t know what you believe my opinions about lockdowns are or were, but I have the feeling you aren’t right about them.

Back to the point of this thread…it’s not hard to see why some people say that EF can be toxic. I think that whether you agree with SusieQ or not, THAT joke on her expense contributed to the perceived toxicity of this community.

Edit: please keep in mind, I’m not saying that YOU ARE toxic, I’m rather pointing out a specific behaviour. Our behaviour doesn’t have to define us for life, and I hope I can at least make you see how that ONE comment came across to other people who weren’t even participating in the discussion.
__________________
The internet makes it easy to be a jerk and forget the person we're talking to is a human. It also makes us see messages from awful people and assume they come from normal peers.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #195  
Old 11.09.2021, 18:22
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
Mocking is not useful when having a discussion, as your counterpart will shut down, or switch to ad hominems as well. If you don’t even respect the person, I understand the human nature to want to make fun of them. I can control that side of my personality, and will refrain from it. Because it’s not the right thing to do to mock other people, least of all publicly.

On the other hand, I do not have an agenda. In March, when the shutdowns rolled out, I volunteered at the Zivilschutz to deliver meals for Spitex (for older people who still live at home) during my extended lunch breaks, for 2 months. I had more alcohol in my hands that I ever downed in my 30+ years of adulthood. I paid for my disposable gloves myself, as Spitex would only give me 1 pair per week. I wasn’t afraid, but I was concerned, so I was careful. I didn’t enjoy skipping lunch for 2 months, or having to work longer afternoons to compensate for my missed midday working time, so I can’t say that I cheered for lockdowns. I don’t know what you believe my opinions about lockdowns are or were, but I have the feeling you aren’t right about them.

Back to the point of this thread…it’s not hard to see why some people say that EF can be toxic. I think that whether you agree with SusieQ or not, THAT joke on her expense contributed to the perceived toxicity of this community.

Edit: please keep in mind, I’m not saying that YOU ARE toxic, I’m rather pointing out a specific behaviour. Our behaviour doesn’t have to define us for life, and I hope I can at least make you see how that ONE comment came across to other people who weren’t even participating in the discussion.
If you take out my only comment regarding that situation it's simply taking it out of context unless you take into consideration the whole situation at that very moment. You have to remember the atmosphere that was around that time and what was actually toxic was people advocating restrictions on movement only for them to be enjoying the walks and other activites yet to support the governments decision on lockdowns etc. Bleibe zu hause and all that stupid pointless stuff.

It was those decisions and people's reactions that were actually doing more harm than good and we saw that in the long run.
__________________
"FAQ is not binding."
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank V__ for this useful post:
  #196  
Old 11.09.2021, 18:37
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,259
Groaned at 312 Times in 268 Posts
Thanked 23,687 Times in 9,633 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
Funny, that... but if it helps you to sleep at night, then so be it. As I only have met a handful of Efers IRL, I prefer to think of posters who I disagree with as (potentially) wrong but I am open to having my mind changed about things as "the science" evolves.
I'm all for open debate - but the posts in question are rather like astrologers trying to convince astronomers that astrology is valid.

Quote:
But "deluded, lacking in critical thinking skills, attracted to conspiracy theories, unable to do basic maths and/or being utterly irrational" not really my place to judge when the only contact I have is from EF.
I judge them from what they post on EF. How else should they be judged? I adjudge this person to make good points, and this one to be illogical and a not really understanding the subject matter. When someone claims, e.g. no one is dying from covid, they're clearly wrong. When they insist, they're True Believers - and by definition, deluded.

When anyone, including you or me, responds to any post, they're making judgements of the poster based on their post. We make judgements ALL the time. The trick is to do it without being judgemental.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #197  
Old 11.09.2021, 18:44
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,259
Groaned at 312 Times in 268 Posts
Thanked 23,687 Times in 9,633 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
But I will laugh at their logic ALL DAY LONG when you "fear" for your wellbeing of going outside just because everybody else can go and you rather want them to be confined in their own home so you can enjoy your walk alone.
I shall mock you ALL DAY LONG for thinking that anyone on this forum wants people confined to their home so they can enjoy a walk alone.



In fact, I'll create an interface, implement you as a class, so I can mock you six ways until Sunday!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #198  
Old 11.09.2021, 19:01
nickatbasel's Avatar
Mod, Chips and Mushy Peas
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 5,420
Groaned at 167 Times in 104 Posts
Thanked 8,661 Times in 3,210 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

I've decided to adopt the phrase "doing a clifton" to describe boasting about engaging in behaviour that risks the health and wellbeing of others and not caring about it.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank nickatbasel for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at nickatbasel for this post:
  #199  
Old 11.09.2021, 19:03
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Here
Posts: 512
Groaned at 59 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 1,477 Times in 524 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post
I did not claim anything other than what I remember. Care to elaborate?
Sure.

Quote:
View Post
Thanks for the clarification... If you are going to refute something, come back with a bit more.
IIRC official reason for my recent two week ban was because I edited a post and apparently deliberately misconstrued a personal attack made by a mod.

What I actually did was defend myself against a personal insult after I disagreed with a mod and then the mod in question was hoist by his own petard. Then he banned me in what I can only assume was a fit of pique. I can't say for certain, obviously, no-one bothered to explain.

But this never happens now...


Quote:
View Post
Come again?

Under the new moderators nobody has been banned for having a different opinion.

Under the old moderators it was happening all the time.
See above.


Quote:
View Post
I laughed at your logic that found people visiting the Xmas market dangerous just because it made your going out more difficult.

Basically you are pro lock down and OK for restrictive measures for other people apart from yourself.

Yes I still laugh at your logic
This mockery is bullying. But you can't seem to see that.


Quote:
View Post
The difference is nobody banned them from posting but they banned people with different opinions like myself, TC, CodPeace and many others who never once used foul language or insulted anybody on this forum unlike some members who are still tolerated under new management.

There are far more opposing views on the forum because the Supreme Soviet leadership is gone.
The new regime has and will likely again ban those with what they view as dissenting voices.

Oh come on, may be no foul language but plenty of insults. Mocking is insulting and you freely admit to that. You're honestly saying you never, not once, purposefully rocked the boat?


Olygirl is right: she's been asked to cool her responses and has. Others have not and are still insisting all is now fine. There doesn't seem to be any recognition of the fact that the very behaviours some of you are pleased "no longer happen now" under the "new improved" modship are very much present.

Sniping and goading and general unpleasantness appear to be manna for some folk.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank RufusB for this useful post:
  #200  
Old 11.09.2021, 19:09
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

Quote:
View Post







This mockery is bullying. But you can't seem to see that.
No it is not. Mocking the North Korean regime is not bullying.

We were facing people who wanted our civil liberties curbed with no reason whatsoever so they can enjoy in those same liberties themselves while the rest of us were locked up at home. NO PASARAN my friend.

You can label me however you want, I know what I stood for and time showed that I and many others with the same view were correct all along!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
reddit




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reddit, Amazon and twitch down.. Hausamsee TV/internet/telephone 26 08.06.2021 21:11
r/RoastMe - Reddit.com Castro Jokes/funnies 0 22.11.2015 14:19
TV Series discussed mark General off-topic 923 06.08.2012 20:36
Reddit Switzerland ElJeFe General off-topic 1 08.01.2012 16:27
This Topic Has Been Discussed Before...... sharkey Forum support 22 19.05.2009 21:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0