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  #61  
Old 21.09.2006, 09:27
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

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Just because someone chooses to live here doesn't mean they should live here with rose colored glasses or with their fingers in their ears yelling "lalalala" whenever something they don't like crops up.

No place is perfect, and there will be something that bothers everyone about where they live. Are you saying you have absolutely no complaints about living in Switzerland? Not a tiny, teeny niggling one?

It is like a marriage. If there are no arguments, then someone's giving in all the time and it isn't a healthy relationship.

And there are those who live here and don't necessarily choose to, and who may be a part of this list. Or those who chose to live here and are having trouble "fitting in". Or those who love it, but do have a few complaints. Or a multitude of other scenarios. But to say "love it or leave it" is simplistic and lacks insight.
Hi evilshell,

I've had complaints, but it was often misdirected and about petty things. For a long time I had to be reminded by a good Swiss friend that I was living in a foreign country and that differences are a natural part of that. I've finally come to accept these differences and embrace it as part of the excitement of living in a foreign culture.

While there are valid complaints, I think a lot of it has to do with the individual and not the country or people of Switzerland. It's possible to find problems no matter where you live. I agree that you shouldn't just go "lalalala", but if you have a problem you should do something about it: Just complaining doesn't solve anything.

I also had problems fitting in when I first immigrated and I understand how difficult it can be. But things changed once I realized that my happiness was my responsibilty. It's what you make of it. Thanks for the reply, chris
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Old 21.09.2006, 09:38
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

I think you are missing the point of the original poster, I think more than anything he wants to fit in and be happy here but if you have read the whole thread you will have read that this guy is at rock bottom financially and emotionally, he has been living with his wifes parents, his wife is studying here and he has a young child, he has moved here for them and doesn't have sufficient language skills yet, which, it seems is his main hurdle for getting a job to support his family - I think anyone in this situation even if they were living in their home country would be feeling a little desperate and scared

I don't think comments like 'if you don't like it go home' will help one bit - do you?

Quote:
Hi evilshell,

I've had complaints, but it was often misdirected and about petty things. For a long time I had to be reminded by a good Swiss friend that I was living in a foreign country and that differences are a natural part of that. I've finally come to accept these differences and embrace it as part of the excitement of living in a foreign culture.

While there are valid complaints, I think a lot of it has to do with the individual and not the country or people of Switzerland. It's possible to find problems no matter where you live. I agree that you shouldn't just go "lalalala", but if you have a problem you should do something about it: Just complaining doesn't solve anything.

I also had problems fitting in when I first immigrated and I understand how difficult it can be. But things changed once I realized that my happiness was my responsibilty. It's what you make of it. Thanks for the reply, chris
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Old 21.09.2006, 10:20
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

Quote:
I think you are missing the point of the original poster, I think more than anything he wants to fit in and be happy here but if you have read the whole thread you will have read that this guy is at rock bottom financially and emotionally, he has been living with his wifes parents, his wife is studying here and he has a young child, he has moved here for them and doesn't have sufficient language skills yet, which, it seems is his main hurdle for getting a job to support his family - I think anyone in this situation even if they were living in their home country would be feeling a little desperate and scared
Hi Nicky,
What pulled me into this thread was a response to Tgif.nl, who wrote, 'The people [of Switzerland] are complete idiots and fools.' - A slight divergence from the original post. The original poster is in a tough and desperate situation, but I don't think the topic, 'Why I HATE Switzerland' is helpful either.

Quote:
I don't think comments like 'if you don't like it go home' will help one bit - do you?
No. But if you don't like it here you should do something about it, even if it means going home. cheers, chris

Last edited by chrisch; 21.09.2006 at 10:37.
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Old 21.09.2006, 10:41
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

I think the title of the thread is perfect; gurutalon has put together his very personal reason why he feels he hates Switzerland.

The "f--- off if you don't like it" attitude does not apply to him as he has decided to make compromises in his life for his wife.

TGIF, if you look, is a one-post wonder. Sure - there are some whinging expats around but I think those people would also slag off their home country or town; they're very much cup-half-empty folk.

My wife, for example, has a Swiss passport and was born in Zurich. She hates it here in Svizzera Tedesca and with her reasons, I can understand why. What's your advice to her then?

The point in hand is gurutalon seeks positive and constructive advice and has done so in an articulate and heartwarming manner. So consider that when you're replying to this thread - his thread.
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  #65  
Old 21.09.2006, 11:23
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

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No. But if you don't like it here you should do something about it, even if it means going home. cheers, chris
And where, pray tell, might home be? I'm glad that "home" is probably clear for you, but it's not always clear for everyone. I think evilshell summed it up the best with her marriage analogy. It's like saying "My wife is driving me nuts with her nose picking, should I shut up, complain about it (I might feel better) or divorce her?". So lack of shopping on Sundays (amongst a long list of other things) drives me nuts in Switzerland. Am I permitted to complain about it in the complaints corner without being told by an expat that I should go "home" (wherever that may be) if I don't like it?

You see, not everyone is as well integrated as you. People are frustrated because they don't feel as though they are permitted to complain about the things that bother them because the Swiss will give them the "if you don't like it go home" routine. That's why the complaints corner was set up - not so they could hear the same thing from an expat!

As for the alternative - do something about it. Please tell me how I could help affect change in the Sunday shopping example? If there's something I could do to help the process, I would. Not being allowed to vote doesn't help either. So I just have to accept it. No, I'm not about to disrupt my entire life to leave the country because of it, but please allow me to complain about it once in a while.

I understand that your comments were to a poorly thought out one-post wonder (tgif.nl), but your response was equally poorly thought out. If you'd read the rest of the thread you'd also see that he got a roasting from other people, but nobody else resorted to the like or leave it routine.

So now I have some news for you and any others who don't like the complaining and offer the "if you don't like it you should leave" rhetoric:

This is the complaints corner. If you don't want to listen to complaining, then you can leave (the complaints corner).
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  #66  
Old 21.09.2006, 11:26
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

Another analogy you can consider:

If you don't like it, become Swiss and use your vote to change it

That is why I am seriously considering a Red Pass.

My Voice: Heard.
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  #67  
Old 21.09.2006, 11:32
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

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My Voice: Heard.
Yep - heard like a Democrat in Texas

The red pass isn't an option for about 30% of the population. I read in 20 min recently that Zurich dropped the price to 250 francs for eligible 2nd generation immigrants under 21. Only 5% of them took the offer. Perhaps for 95% of them the price (in terms of continued military service/civil service/extra tax payments) was too high.

True, the ability to vote would make me slightly happier, but it's not on the cards for me at the moment, and if it were, the price (in terms of civic obligation would be too much). Ok, I'd better go off and back my bags in that case. It's been nice knowing you all.
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Old 21.09.2006, 11:36
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

My first two years in Switzerland were very similar to Gurutalon's. What made it really difficult was the "advice" we were given by locals and older expats. I found myself defending how it felt to be in a place where I couldn't speak the language properly or find work. Eventually it got so bad that we started refusing invitations from extended family and acquaintances, because what we'd be going to was actually an interrogation. I hardly recognised the insecure person I had become.

I feel for you Gurutalon, and it's not sympathy, it's empathy. I had to remind myself constantly of who I really was, what I was capable of during those two years. Don't apologise for how you feel right now. And only listen to the advice that works for you.
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Old 21.09.2006, 11:41
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

I have to support the "do something about it" advice. If not faced and tackled - even if the solution is a decision to nothing - problems fester and rarely improve. You don't need to be a relationship counseller to realise that.

As regards more practical problems in life, complaining is fine: for fun or just to let off some steam, but it helps no-one unless there is some positive action to improve the situation.

You have to accept nothing. As in the film the Untouchables as Sean Connery says as he lies bleeding to death in the hall: "What are you prepared to do now to get Capone". It all about the sacrifices you are prepared to make to achieve something.

I'm sure the Americans among us will recognise the attitude.

dave

"Dear Migros CEO,
I am an expat in Zürich and I lead a busy here in Switzerland , and this means I have little time to shop during the week. Therefore I strongly urge you to tackle at government level a move to Sunday shopping with whatever compromises and community offsets are necessary to make it a reality. Many of my colleagues including the swiss agree that some relaxation is necessary.

Might I suggest as migros use their influence in providing sport facilities to the local community as a sweetener for the expansion plans ?

I would also recommend further directed research into the real sea change towards liberalisation of trading in this country.... blah blah blah blah blah
lots of love ,
whinging dave xxx"


[quote=mark]
As for the alternative - do something about it. Please tell me how I could help affect change in the Sunday shopping example? If there's something I could do to help the process, I would. Not being allowed to vote doesn't help either. So I just have to accept it. No, I'm not about to disrupt my entire life to leave the country because of it, but please allow me to complain about it once in a while.
quote]
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Old 21.09.2006, 11:47
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

DaveA, Interesting idea to write a letter to Migros. I've written to them before, but not about Sunday trading. The thing is, shops like Migros would LOVE to extend their trading hours, but they are limited by the law. Do you think they aren't already lobbying? In a direct democracy it's the people that have to be lobbied, not Migros. It's all about picking your battles: some things can be changed by our own actions (I've been a prolific letter writer in the past), but other things can't. Sure I could start to collect signatures to force a vote on the issue, but as a non-citizen I'm not allowed. So like I said before - maybe I should pack my bags. Believe me - if there were something concrete and useful I could do on that issue I WOULD!
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Old 21.09.2006, 11:59
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

What they need is a lever. How about :

1. Out of town shopping centres with free sports facility access on Sundays (only if the whole complex is allowed to open of course)

2. Limited opening of a choice 4hrs on Sunday for shops under 500sqm (a local shop for local people - we'll have no trouble here )

3. Bribe the churches

4. Limit the range of products that can be sold on Sunday, and progress by creep.

5. Establish "tourist zone" shops which would help the little guys too.

The last time I wrote a letter was to the chairman of M&S in UK as they were unable to deliver my furniture or give a forecast date. It got published in the Sun newspaper and I made 25quid out of it at least

The only thing that has almost pushed me into a campaign of letter writing recently is the bell ringing competition that can be heard near where I live every evening about 7pm which is completely disproportionate to either tradition or sanity...

dave


Quote:
DaveA, Interesting idea to write a letter to Migros. I've written to them before, but not about Sunday trading.
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  #72  
Old 21.09.2006, 12:02
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

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The only thing that has almost pushed me into a campaign of letter writing recently is the bell ringing competition that can be heard near where I live every evening about 7pm which is completely disproportionate to either tradition or sanity...
Also a commendable course of action, and a worthy goal. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but some Swiss have fought that battle to the highest court in the land and WON, but they are still ignored and the communities continue with the bell ringing. But hey - if it makes you feel better try and write them a letter
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Old 21.09.2006, 12:03
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

interestingly the powers that be are revisiting certain trading issues like duty-free for incoming passengers (http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news...ory_id=7084366) last considered 4 years ago. Certainly you do see certain airports offering duty-free for incoming travellers when you're *somewhere else*.

But we're derailing the thread slightly with those thoughts. Gurutalon and his desires and attempts to improve his standing here is in the frame; I would hasten to add that it's not a fact of him not having or wanting to do something
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Old 21.09.2006, 12:08
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

6 oversize swiss pillows.
12 bungies
One set grappling hooks.
One mission impossible theme tune.
One new moon
One call to 20mins.

"Deafened expat at end of tether"
"Muffled bells confuse locals"
"Protester replaces bell tower with quieter Minaret"

Of course I have no intention of actually doing or endorsing this etc etc

dave


Quote:
Also a commendable course of action, and a worthy goal. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but some Swiss have fought that battle to the highest court in the land and WON, but they are still ignored and the communities continue with the bell ringing. But hey - if it makes you feel better try and write them a letter
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  #75  
Old 21.09.2006, 12:21
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

I really don't like these personal discussions in open forum, as it can sometimes do more harm than good, and the information we are privy-to is very limited.

With that disclaimer, IMO the most important thing is to get enough money coming in to gain some indepedence from your inlaws and get up the Maslow scale...

No options should be ruled out. I work in a very specialised industry, and years ago I had to move away alone to find work and do the weekend commute thang to two young kids. Necessity is the mother of invention. It was no fun, but it got us back on our feet again, and everything improved.

By all means discuss proposals or ask for advice to get out of your situation, but I don't think the "I hate myself" kind of posts will bring helpful responses without the willingness on your part to take some positive steps.

dave

"Failure is not falling down. Failure is not knowing how to get back up again"

Quote:
this guy is at rock bottom financially and emotionally, he has been living with his wifes parents, his wife is studying here and he has a young child
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  #76  
Old 21.09.2006, 12:51
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

Quote:
"Failure is not falling down. Failure is not knowing how to get back up again"
I'm not sure on this. It's reasonable not to know how to get up. What's more relevent is the persons willingness to get back up. (See how hypnosis works.)

Physical tiredness is easily remedied; emotional exhaustion is crippling.

Alfred, Bruce Wayne's/Batmans Butler asks: "Why do we fall, Sir?" To learn how to get back up".

Small moves. Keep going...

Last edited by Uncle Max; 22.09.2006 at 00:09.
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Old 21.09.2006, 13:23
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

Quote:
And where, pray tell, might home be? I'm glad that "home" is probably clear for you, but it's not always clear for everyone. I think evilshell summed it up the best with her marriage analogy. It's like saying "My wife is driving me nuts with her nose picking, should I shut up, complain about it (I might feel better) or divorce her?". So lack of shopping on Sundays (amongst a long list of other things) drives me nuts in Switzerland. Am I permitted to complain about it in the complaints corner without being told by an expat that I should go "home" (wherever that may be) if I don't like it?

You see, not everyone is as well integrated as you. People are frustrated because they don't feel as though they are permitted to complain about the things that bother them because the Swiss will give them the "if you don't like it go home" routine. That's why the complaints corner was set up - not so they could hear the same thing from an expat!

As for the alternative - do something about it. Please tell me how I could help affect change in the Sunday shopping example? If there's something I could do to help the process, I would. Not being allowed to vote doesn't help either. So I just have to accept it. No, I'm not about to disrupt my entire life to leave the country because of it, but please allow me to complain about it once in a while.

I understand that your comments were to a poorly thought out one-post wonder (tgif.nl), but your response was equally poorly thought out. If you'd read the rest of the thread you'd also see that he got a roasting from other people, but nobody else resorted to the like or leave it routine.

So now I have some news for you and any others who don't like the complaining and offer the "if you don't like it you should leave" rhetoric:

This is the complaints corner. If you don't want to listen to complaining, then you can leave (the complaints corner).
Hi Mark!

'Home' was Nicky's choice of words, but I'd say it's where you feel most comfortable. I wrote earlier, '...if you don't like it here you should do something about it, even if it means going home.' I'm saying that leaving is a valid option if you genuinely don't like it here. I'm not saying you should leave if you only have a problem with, say, a lack of Sunday shopping. It's when you blame the country for your overall unhappiness that you should reconsider where you call home. It's not meant as an f-off. It's a suggestion that you should move to a place where you'd be happier.

Here is how I dealt with the lack of Sunday shopping and early shop hours: I accepted it and changed my habits. I shop when the stores are open and go to the train or gas station shops when I need something essential after-hours. It no longer bothers me. I applaud DaveA for his action and hope it leads to something.

For the nose picking analogy I would try to help her break -what most of us would consider- the bad habit. There are other options to shutting up, complaining, or leaving: Do something about it.

Tgif.nl should leave the country. Perhaps I'm slightly defensive of Switzerland, but I'd have the same opinion if he moved to my home country and called all the people, 'complete idiots and fools'. Heck, it was he who wrote that he wanted to leave because he hates it so much. I'm agreeing with him.

I've done reasonably well at integrating but it wasn't an accident. It's when I stopped complaining about petty issues and started accepting that I live in a foreign country that I began to adapt. I only wish I had figured this out earlier.

You're right, this is the complaints corner. So let's all complain! ;-)

Many thanks for the reply. cheers, chris
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  #78  
Old 21.09.2006, 16:23
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

Quote:
Another analogy you can consider:

If you don't like it, become Swiss and use your vote to change it

That is why I am seriously considering a Red Pass.

My Voice: Heard.
That is a major reason why I will be filing for citizenship next year, when I'm eligible. If I live here, I want to have a say in the running of the place. (of course, that means there's a good chance my husband and I might cancel eachother out on something, but I'll take the risk )
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Old 21.09.2006, 17:11
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

I don't really want to leave. I have friends here now, and I have a feeling if I knew the language and could find a job and interact with people I might enjoy it more. I just didn't think it would take me YEARS to learn the language. I have been here 15 months now and barely get by in hoch deutsch and know no swiss dialect. If I have to wait until I can converse to find a job my family WILL have died. We have enough money until December and then I don't know what we will do. My wife wants to stay in Europe so our daughter can be bilingual, and seeing how important it is I now agree. I don't want something like this to happen to her someday. If we go back to the states she will NEVER be bilingual, because noone there speaks anything but English, except illegals. I find out later if I passed the CELTA, but if not I guess I will just have to get 2 or 3 crap jobs and never see my family so that they can survive here, because I know nothing of business, which seems to be the only other career for English speakers. And unless they invent a technology to learn a language in a few short weeks I will need money soon. I can't continue to live off credit. I think I may try to teach private lessons if I don't pass, won't make much but it will be something and maybe sell newspapers, cause I doubt you need much German for that, so I do have options, but you can't raise a family on them.
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Old 21.09.2006, 18:06
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Re: Why I HATE Switzerland.

Quote:
I have been here 15 months now and barely get by in hoch deutsch and know no swiss dialect.
See my post here. You are probably better than you think. And it can't hurt to apply for some jobs even other than teaching--I have met lots of people here for multiple years, even ones that grew up here, who don't speak German.

Be tough!!
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