Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 22.07.2007, 14:53
Nairda's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 79 Posts
Nairda has made some interesting contributions
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post
The airport example does not shock me. If that happened in the UK, would you say it is racist? Or realistic? Because the 7/7 bombers, the failed 21/7 bombers and the recent car "bombers" all were of Asian origin, were they not? Hardly racial profiling - and if you could stretch to claiming that you must ask yourself WHO IS TO BLAME? The cops? Or the wrong-doers.

Same goes in France for the Algerian immigrants - targeted (yes often wrongly) because their countrymen were often one-man crime waves.

I'm not saying it's right but crime detection and prevention is a form of statistical analysis. What odds would you get on the next UK terrorist having milky-white skin? Long odds?
Firstly, the criminals you mention were not all of Asian origin, but included people of Caribbean, African, Middle Eastern and Asian origin.
Secondly, their victims were as ethnically diverse as you would expect the population of a major international city to be or indeed travellers at an international airport.
Thirdly, the blithe assumption that a terrorist couldn't in all probability be white undermines security. Police and customs don't use profiling for drugs mules, but rely on evidence (e.g sniffer dogs) and reasonable suspicion (e.g. prior intelligence or unusual behaviour) because anyone could be carrying drugs or indeed a bomb for who knows what reason.

Targeting people because of their ethnicity, nationality or skin colour is inefficient, ineffective and counter-productive. An Asian person at the airport is far far more likely to be the victim of any incident that might occur than to be the perpetrator.

Effective policing is not based on "statistical analysis" but on evidence and reasonable suspicion.

Everyone at the airport is entitled to view the police as there for their protection rather than feeling concerned that they may be harassed purely on their skin colour.

Effective security and crime prevention in a democratic society relies on policing by consent, which is undermined when people are treated unfairly. If, at airport security you saw that every 10th person was being taken out of the line and politely questioned you probably would not mind when it happened to you. If, however every white person was being taken to one side whilst everyone else was left alone, you'd be unhappy. Now imagine if you often had that experience because hey everyone knows there are lots of bad people in the world who are white.

Policing by consent is enhanced when the police force is reasonably representative of the society it serves, when police officers are not badly treated because they happen to be, say women or black, and when police officers are reprimanded if they demonstrate sexist or racist behaviour towards the public they serve. The Swiss police have got a long way to go on this point.

Bottom line, everyone is entitled to be treated fairly irrespective of their skin colour.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 22.07.2007, 16:09
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post
Bottom line, everyone is entitled to be treated fairly irrespective of their skin colour.
In an ideal world certainly..... in reality never. I am black South African working in Zürich. On my way back from Heathrow, i was stopped at passport control (In Zürich) because the customs officers refused to believe that my B permit stating that i am a scientist employed by the university was valid. Even after they had scanned the barcode and it came up clean.... they proceeded to call two more officers to look at me, the photo in my passport and the one in my ausweiss in case it was not the same person.... needless to say the swiss behind me were all very embarassed (though no-one spoke out about it) and after 20 min with me having a big smile on my face and refusing to answer any more questions, except to show them two wrists and daring them to lock me up, they had to grudgingly let me through.

Coming from South Africa, I am rather thick skinned about these issues but never let an oppurtunity go to put the swiss in their place, particularly about ausweiss issues as i am legally in their country at the behest of THEIR univeristy.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 22.07.2007, 18:16
Nairda's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 79 Posts
Nairda has made some interesting contributions
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

As I said in post # 68, in my view the Swiss police are where the British police were in the 1970s - whilst many police officers will be fine, it's not exactly going to harm your career if you display racist attitudes and behaviours.
It's not helped that many people just accept this state of affairs.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 22.07.2007, 22:19
Colonelboris's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 1,137
Groaned at 23 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,273 Times in 671 Posts
Colonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond repute
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

A friend of mine had a temporary job at Heathrow as security, which mostly involved patting down every tenth person. For the first few weeks, he felt very uncomfortable patting down anyone who wasn't white as they often gave him a hard time over it and accused him of being a racist, even though he explained about the every tenth person thing. About three weeks in, one guy shouted very loudly 'You're doing this because i'm black, right?' and poor old chap lost his temper and replied very coldly 'You're only asking me that because I'm white, aren't you?', which caused the guy to stop moaning and look a bit shame-faced. Worked every time after that.
He also (under supervision) got to pat down Britney Spears, poor bugger.
__________________
New book out now: European Bird Names: A Translation Guide.
www.tonykeenebirds,co,uk - photos, paintings and drawings of Swiss, Australian, NZ and British birds
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 23.07.2007, 01:01
Nairda's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 79 Posts
Nairda has made some interesting contributions
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

If people have some experience of being treated unfairly because of their skin colour they are bound to respond negatively. Of course that's not nice for someone who's acting professionally.

Fortunately, usually at London Heathrow:
1. It can be demonstrated it's random selection.
2. Justifiable complaints will be addressed.
3. Some of the security staff will themselves be black.
4. If you ask to speak to a manager they may well be black.
5. If an officer has just been picking on black people due to racism they will be disciplined.
6. Some of the other travellers would speak out if treatment was clearly racist.
7. There would generally be a public outcry if black people were being singled out for unfair treatment.

At Zurich Kloten, using DNAMan's example:
1. Are you only stopping me because I am black? - Yes.
2. Well I'm not happy about that - Tough!
3. Are any of the other officers black? - No.
4. Your manager? - Are you insane?
5. Your racist behaviour will land you in trouble - Dream on!
6. Is anyone going to say anything? - No.
7. Only black people singled out for unfair treatment - Is that an SVP election poster?!

I once worked at Heathrow interviewing every 25th person for the government's passenger survey and ended up 'interrogating' Boy George. A pat down wasn't required though.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 23.07.2007, 08:20
Colonelboris's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 1,137
Groaned at 23 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,273 Times in 671 Posts
Colonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond repute
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Oh, don't get me wrong, I just relating my friend's story while we were on the subject.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 23.07.2007, 08:50
Lob's Avatar
Lob Lob is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: -
Posts: 7,814
Groaned at 45 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 1,973 Times in 1,060 Posts
Lob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post
Bottom line, everyone is entitled to be treated fairly irrespective of their skin colour.
I wholeheartedly agree. In a perfect world.

But as usual the minority are ruining for the majority. Maybe if that minority did not exist, Jean Charles de Menezes would be still alive today.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 23.07.2007, 12:11
Nairda's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 79 Posts
Nairda has made some interesting contributions
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

De Menezes was shot dead by the police because to them he looked Arab. That illustrates my point.
Clearly, this would not have happened had there not been a bomb attempt on the underground the day before. However, there will always be a minority of terrorists, or criminals, or bad people. That is not a justification for the authorities to treat people unfairly because of their skin colour.
You don't need an ideal world of no unsavoury characters for the majority of decent people to get fair treatment regardless of race from the authorities. But you do need people in society to generally agree that this is important.
In addition to the personal tragedy, the de Menezes shooting did nothing to make the underground safer and if anything helped the terrorists' cause by making some people more fearful.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 24.07.2007, 10:53
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bern
Posts: 44
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
GregA has no particular reputation at present
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Well I believe staff at Heathrow are equally obnoxious to all passengers, prefer 100 times to go through passport control in Switzerland than be manhandled by "know it all" nobodies.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 24.07.2007, 10:57
Polorise's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: about there
Posts: 2,738
Groaned at 26 Times in 26 Posts
Thanked 2,325 Times in 1,259 Posts
Polorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond repute
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post
Well I believe staff at Heathrow are equally obnoxious to all passengers, prefer 100 times to go through passport control in Switzerland than be manhandled by "know it all" nobodies.
I now avoid Heathrow like the plague & go in via City ... can be a pain getting into Central London, but anything is better than Heathrow on the way back from Blighty ....
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 24.07.2007, 12:57
Nairda's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 79 Posts
Nairda has made some interesting contributions
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post
Well I believe staff at Heathrow are equally obnoxious to all passengers, prefer 100 times to go through passport control in Switzerland than be manhandled by "know it all" nobodies.
Equally obnoxious is good... equally pleasant is better .

I agree, as I've said I've also had really pleasant treatment at passport control in Zurich that you just wouldn't get at Heathrow, but then I've got a Swiss Passport.

Actually, the only time an immigration officer has made the effort to be welcoming at Heathrow was when I was returning from the Caribbean using my Swiss Pass. Try *accidentally* flashing your Swiss residency permit, you might get some respect .
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 24.07.2007, 12:58
chemgoddess's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere, USA
Posts: 1,347
Groaned at 41 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 950 Times in 459 Posts
chemgoddess has an excellent reputationchemgoddess has an excellent reputationchemgoddess has an excellent reputationchemgoddess has an excellent reputation
Re: White & Non White foreigners..



http://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-pol...nitiative.html

Interesting photo yes?

ausschaffungsinitiative.ch/
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 24.07.2007, 13:06
argus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern Germany; was in Zug
Posts: 3,385
Groaned at 15 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 2,564 Times in 1,242 Posts
argus has a reputation beyond reputeargus has a reputation beyond reputeargus has a reputation beyond reputeargus has a reputation beyond reputeargus has a reputation beyond reputeargus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

As a slightly Japanese-looking person of Chinese origin, I can say this: There is 'racism' or provincialism among Chinese-looking people -- whether they're from China, Taiwan, Hongkong, Singapore, Malaysia or the diaspora in other countries. 'Racism' or a dislike/suspicion of foreigners will never be eradicated.

All I can say is: Handle each situation as it comes.
Don't allow bad service to be dished out to you -- point it out, and if the perpetrator does not backtrack or apologise, complain to his/her supervisor or manager.

Often I don't know the reason why I'm getting bad service -- whether the person is having a bad day, she/he doesn't like my face or expression /height/dressing/shoe size (rather than my skin colour), or he/she just hates his/her job, etc.

Don't let nasty or ignorant folk feel they can always get away with their bad behaviour. Let them know that, sometimes at least, there are consequences not favourable to them.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 24.07.2007, 13:35
Nairda's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 79 Posts
Nairda has made some interesting contributions
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Thanks chemgoddess - Just what you would expect from the SVP.
Unfortunately, they get a lot of electoral support and this sort of image perpetuates a culture where official racism and unequal treatment of non-white foreigners is accepted.

I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.

I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 24.07.2007, 13:43
Nairda's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 79 Posts
Nairda has made some interesting contributions
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

A better image of Switzerland I think.



http://www.alleanders-allegleich.ch/
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 24.07.2007, 13:54
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: zürich
Posts: 3,191
Groaned at 105 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,948 Times in 1,620 Posts
i-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond repute
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post


http://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-pol...nitiative.html

Interesting photo yes?

ausschaffungsinitiative.ch/
Have you seen the recent poster from the Young SVP? They actually use images of hitler, the slogan running along the lines of..... "if we don´t control the auslander problem now, eventually people will look for their own solutions", obviously meaning that another hitler-type will be sought. I feel very uncomfortable here in Switzerland now, even though I´m lucky enough to have the "right" colour skin/hair/passport.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 24.07.2007, 13:57
Colonelboris's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 1,137
Groaned at 23 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,273 Times in 671 Posts
Colonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond repute
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Crikey - if they'd have tried that next door, someone'd be doing time pretty soon.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 31.07.2007, 09:49
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post


http://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-pol...nitiative.html

Interesting photo yes?

ausschaffungsinitiative.ch/

ABSOLUTELY SHAMEFUL and DISGUSTING IMAGE!
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 31.07.2007, 10:08
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bern
Posts: 44
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
GregA has no particular reputation at present
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

Quote:
View Post
ABSOLUTELY SHAMEFUL and DISGUSTING IMAGE!
Why??? I do not see anything shameful in the image, maybe in the campaign but the image does not disturb me.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 31.07.2007, 10:28
panamahat's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Seefeld, Zürich
Posts: 438
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 71 Times in 57 Posts
panamahat has no particular reputation at present
Re: White & Non White foreigners..

it's fine
no drama

we've got black sheep in the family too . . . . ;-)
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Two foreigners...are their children foreigners too? alessione Family matters/health 15 28.02.2008 12:33
Report on foreigners in Swiss prisons mark Swiss politics/news 19 05.01.2008 20:54
Non-sales to foreigners in Wallis evianers Housing in general 36 18.05.2007 09:45
two foreigners want to divorce in Switzerland? suddenyy Family matters/health 11 19.03.2007 16:56
Foreigners voting in canton Zurich mark Swiss politics/news 14 29.01.2007 22:31


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0