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  #41  
Old 06.03.2010, 01:30
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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Unfortunately Nick advised his child that it was correct and a good reaction to do bodily harm to animals who were not trying to harm him at all simply because he was afraid -- so no break given from me. Your fear is not a justification for violent acts.

STUPID IGNORANT PARENTS who overreact often cause more problems than exist in the first place. Your overreaction tells your kid there WAS something to be scared of (there wasn't clearly or you would have written about having to fight off the dog etc.) and encourages him to be more fearful next time rather than brave. Great.

If my dogs reacted in fearful attacks every time some small child ran up to them at full tilt (or sometimes screaming their heads off) to pet them, people would want them put down for 'aggressive behavior' - so why is it acceptable for some idiot kid or parent who is frightened of NOTHING REAL, not one threatening behavior in a dog - to try to hit it, throw stones at it etc. ??

So I guess if we use that logic - if your adolescent kids are running around near me, screaming and playing, and I don't like because I feel threatened by teenagers in general (I read in the paper teen crime is on the rise) - it is it OK if I just go up and slug them between the eyes or punch them in the guts to pre-empt anything bad happening to me ?
I agree it is wrong for her to teach the kid to throw rocks at the dog, but at the same time how do you know if a dog is running up on you to play or to bite?! What if a dog is coming to attack and the kid thinks it just wants to play until it's too late. When a dog is running up on someone especially a big dog that you don't know, you don't know if he's playing, wants to be petted or is out for blood. That's why dogs should be on leashes. Some people don't like dogs, fear dogs, or don't understand dogs and do not want or appreciate any dog running up on them getting them all scared and tensed up. Dogs should always be on leashes even the mostly gentle playful ones because other people don't know the big dog is a big softy.
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  #42  
Old 06.03.2010, 01:48
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

In Geneva (and i assume in other cantons as well) there are some areas where dogs can be without a leash. So if you do go there you know what to expect
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  #43  
Old 06.03.2010, 02:56
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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I agree it is wrong for her to teach the kid to throw rocks at the dog, but at the same time how do you know if a dog is running up on you to play or to bite?! What if a dog is coming to attack and the kid thinks it just wants to play until it's too late. When a dog is running up on someone especially a big dog that you don't know, you don't know if he's playing, wants to be petted or is out for blood. That's why dogs should be on leashes. Some people don't like dogs, fear dogs, or don't understand dogs and do not want or appreciate any dog running up on them getting them all scared and tensed up. Dogs should always be on leashes even the mostly gentle playful ones because other people don't know the big dog is a big softy.
Try renting a couple of videos on dog behavior if you are really that confused about it. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between bared teeth, snapping and snarling aggressive tense dog approaching and a happy open mouthed friendly galloping one, especially if he is playing with his other doggy mates. People do not bring 'out for blood' dogs to public parks and have them off leash. The fact that Nick could identify the owner of the dog means to me that the dogs were close enough to their owner to be considered reasonably well behaved.

You know, those dang teenagers get me pretty tensed up too - I just can't trust 'em or figure 'em out, so I am just going to request they all be kept on leashes or better yet, locked up in cages at home and not allowed to be taken out of their yards.

And don't get me started with English parents who let their kids run wild in restaurants and cafés as if it's a playground ...

I suggest we all try learning to be responsible for our own fearful feelings and not forcing someone to lock up perfectly good happy dogs just because of our own phobic and/or intolerant reactions. Clearly dog lovers are here to stay and Western Europe does love dogs - part of why I find it so much nicer here than in many other places I've lived.

Most dogs need to have lots of exercise to be happy and well adjusted. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that they or their owners should be happy for them to spend their lives on the end of a metre long rope.

I live in a place where dogs are taken in parks off leash all the time - the only time of year we have any issues is in tourist season when uptight Americans, English or big city dwellers come and freak out about it. Not that anything happens to them - they just simply cannot stand to see dogs running and playing freely without flipping out in fear. One jerky jogger from Paris reported my friend's dog to the police because she was afraid of it (they would pass each other on the trail from time to time and the dog was always close to my friend and this woman would stop dead and start screaming at my friend to hold back her dog, who literally was doing nothing to her).

The jerky jogger from Paris lied to the police and filled out a report that said my friend's dog bit her and claimed to have 'proof' of the dog bite. My friend was literally in tears thinking her dog might be killed because of this dumb b*tch who had a mean streak and feared/hated dogs. She was so distraught - an older lady and her dog was her only companion.

Luckily the town doctors refused to certify that the tiny scratch on her hand (god knows what she did to herself to fake it) was a dog bite as she claimed it was - there were no teeth marks of any kind and the case was eventually dropped and luckily we have not seen that dumb bint in several seasons now.

But I mention it to illustrate the other side of the coin - this is the kind if irrational and cruel discrimination dogs and their owners face from fearful loathesome people like the one Nick is raising now all the time - innocent dogs put down thanks to false reports, done just out of spite or fear because they thing their fear is JUSTIFYING THEIR IRRATIONAL ACTIONS AND BELIEFS.

I have another friend who had a false claim made against his dog by a neighbor who hated dogs (in this case he did not even try to claim medical proof of a bite he just claimed he was 'attacked') - My friend had to get several other people in the area to testify that the dog was great and friendly, and by overwhelming support of the other neighbors he won his case too. But I imagine there are cases where the dogs are not so lucky. They are considered guilty until proven innocent.

I think all these dog haters on this forum are missing the point that Nick's child was NOT the victim of doggy aggression but was a victim only of his own fears of large running dogs - and he burst into tears of his own accord.

Nick purely reacted to his offspring's tears, not to the actual situation at hand, which when looked at objectively was a fleeting momentary sniff at best. It's no wonder the owner of the dog said he needed to keep his kid under better control - he clearly does ! His child has no sense of what to really be afraid of now in dog behavior and now has been taught that it is OK to strike out at whatever scares you, rather than to learn to evaluate the situation and find out first if what is scaring you is actually REALLY that scary to start with !

99.9% of dogs that are with an owner running in the park are NOT going to be running around attacking people. No one wants to see their dog put down and would not bring aggressive people un-friendly dogs to the park. So if you see a dog with an owner running off leash, the first assumption should be that it is friendly. Unless its body language shows otherwise, there is no valid reason for any other thought.

His kid didn't even get jumped on or slobbered on or I am sure he would have mentioned that part - so really not much to freak out about if you ask me. It clearly happened so fast that Nick doesn't even know if the owner had 3 or 4 dogs ... ! He is just doesn't want to admit that he has a wimpy kid and so wants to blame the innocent dogs for it - that way he doesn't have to think of his kid as the one with the problem.

By playing into and reinforcing the fear his kid expressed he is only breeding a future dog phobia or better yet a kid with a streak for cruelty to animals. Charming.

I have seen so many adults handle situations like this better, showing their kids the difference between happy or angry dogs, how to properly approach a dog they see etc. and they end up having a well adjusted child who could deal properly with various animals instead of breeding a fearful aggressive dog-phobic wuss.

Once, when I was in the park a dog came up to me and ran - my GOD WAS I SCARED, I mean it was a DOG, a DOG you know .... And then I saw it RUN AGAIN somewhere ELSE, who knows where it went - AHHHH OMG what can we do with all these RUNNING DOGS !!!?????
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  #44  
Old 06.03.2010, 03:07
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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I know how you feel! I soooooooo hate it when people let their dogs run loose in a park! I was in a park once where some lady let her dog run loose and the dog suddenly started running towards me and just before he reached me a guy came jogging by out of nowhere and the dog changed direction and chased him till the owner finally caught up and grabbed the dog. I wish people will keep their dogs on leashes in public like that. I like dogs, but you never know if other people's dogs are agressive or not and sometimes the dogs do it unpredictably. Plus I have seen two people with dogs off leashes where the two dogs were ready to fight each other and niether owner had a leash on them in which to control them. The rule is there for a reason in the park, all dogs should be on leashes. Period.
Wow.

I once remember a friend of mine telling me this story. It reminds me of yours.

"I was in downtown Grand Rapids this weekend for band practice, and I was walking back to my car. I saw this group of black guys on the other side of the street walking towards me. I was so scared. I have never been so scared in my life you guys ... oh my god."

I waited for her to finish the story - for it to have some conclusion. What happened next, I asked ?

"I got into my car and drove out of there as fast as I could."

Yep, THAT WAS IT. Her big story was that she had been scared.

She blamed the black people for causing her fear. They never got even to her side of the street. She was a racist, but in her mind, the black people were the fault of her fearful night and should not have been 'hanging out like that'. Her main exposure to black people before this as it turns out, had only been on TV ...
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  #45  
Old 06.03.2010, 03:14
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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Nick purely reacted to his offspring's tears, not to the actual situation at hand, which when looked at objectively was a fleeting momentary sniff at best.
You were there, were you?

Did you manage to take a photograph?

I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

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I once remember a friend of mine telling me this story. It reminds me of yours. yadda yadda bizarre irrelevant tripe

I've never known a black-skinned human being savage someone with his teeth. Have you?
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Old 06.03.2010, 10:15
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

If something major had happened - if the dog even touched the kid to lick his face - we would have been told in detail about it by now, believe me.

And the example was pretty relevant. It's to illustrate how people will perceive a neutral situation a different and unfair way purely out of fear and their own biases, not out of the reality of the situation. I am sure you know that some white people are afraid of black people simply for the fact that they are black, as they see too many cop shows on TV where blacks are the criminals. My friend was a racist so for her, the fact that someone black was across the street from her at night was a huge deal to her and frightened her. She thought of blacks as gang members and murderers, not as human beings. Some people think of dogs only as biting machines, which is ridiculous.
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Old 06.03.2010, 10:19
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

OK I think people are now going a bit over board on this thread - I am sure nick is sat chuckling to himself at his obvious **** take comment being taken so seriously

Guys Nick replied to the hysteria saying he likes dogs is an animal lover - I think the rifle comments etc... are really his take on humour and you aer all falling for it hook line and sinker
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  #48  
Old 06.03.2010, 12:44
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

I have been reading this thread with interest and have finally decided to put in my 2 cents worth.

While I am a dog lover myself, and think dogs should be allowed to run free in appropriate areas, the dogs also need to be under the command of their owners, which, in this case, Nick has indicated that they did not respond to voice commands, with the excuse for one of the dogs being 'he's just a baby'. If a dog doesn't respond to voice commands, baby or not, it shouldn’t be off the leash. As Nick pointed out, it is against the law in Basel to not have your dogs under control at all times, on and off leash.

Then there is also perspective. Nick's son is THREE. These dogs included a Great Dane and an Alsatian. If you saw three or four animals, half again your height, 4-5 times your weight, charging down on you, you would be terrified too. Too scared to worry about figuring out the animal’s body language.
Body language won’t always mean no harm either. When I was the same age as Nick’s son is now, a Great Dane came up to me, very friendly and happy, wanting to play with someone. He was bouncing around and his leg came up and he clawed my under the eye, cutting open my face from my nose to the outer edge of my eye. There was so much blood that my parents thought I had lost my eye. Fortunately, it was under the eye, but so close, I had to be sewn up without an anesthetic. A very traumatic experience caused by a well meaning dog who just wanted someone to play with.
Nick has a valid complaint. This is the complaints corner. If you don’t want to read complaints go elsewhere. As a couple of people have pointed out, Nick’s comments are tongue in cheek. Where else do you vent but in the complaints corner? Better he gets it all out here, isn’t it?
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Old 06.03.2010, 14:38
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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I've never known a black-skinned human being savage someone with his teeth. Have you?
Yes, one lady in Claraplatz, Basel....
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Old 06.03.2010, 17:15
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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Better he gets it all out here, isn’t it?
Or on a dumb animal
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Old 07.03.2010, 20:02
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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OK I think people are now going a bit over board on this thread - I am sure nick is sat chuckling to himself at his obvious **** take comment being taken so seriously

Guys Nick replied to the hysteria saying he likes dogs is an animal lover - I think the rifle comments etc... are really his take on humour and you aer all falling for it hook line and sinker
Edit: Ok, maybe this should be moved to complaints corner.

Possible, but if I were posting such things, I really would mean that, shooting insensitive dog owners, to start with.

It is rare for me to show outbursts on the forum, but today I am literally shaking, partly in fear and mostly a mix of shame from the fright I got from dogs. I am feeling violated.

Thing is, I love this country, the naturewegs mean the whole earth to me but one of my weakness if you may call that, is I have a rational fear of dogs. i.e. I get scared **** when they charge me with a growl (I am not a 3 year old, I have a 10 year old myself, I can make out when it is not a friendly ball of fur coming at me).

Just an hour ago, after a week of living in Ruti I finally discovered the name of the hill I used to see daily, I discovered the Vitaparcours and I was so happy, I was running like a free bird. And here comes a walker with two dogs off leash, they charge me. I freeze in fear and look like a vulnerable child at the dog owner, seeking his intervention. Don't get me wrong, I was wearing thick shoes and gloves today, I could just as well have mauled the dog. I just didn't do it else I would regret it. Okay, nothing happened, the owner said something in German, most likely that his dogs are adorable and don't mean to bite, yada yada. For some of you not affected, this story is a storm in a tea cup and source of entertainment.

But sad thing for me is, in a picture perfect place like this, I have to live with this one little thing sticking out like a sore thumb. It happened with me when I figured out the Uetliberg vitaparcours after months of effort, a dog that almost got me, it was on leash but the leash was extensible and the lady had not locked it. Then I moved to Zug, I had to pass by a house daily and the dog used to yap at my heels almost every single day, its walking time coincided with my office-going time.

In one of the earlier posts someone was saying how Nick would have turned a nice dog into a biter by teaching his kid to throw stone. Today I am able to see the other face of it, why someone the other day had poisoned 5 dogs in oerlikon. The thing is, so long as people kill debate (and in this forum, that means groans and filthy red blobs), people just collect their angst and turn evil.

Look at the irony, I am a dog lover myself. We had a ferocious dog that we loved and kept for 10 years when I was young. As children we used to surreptitiously pass on our share of meat (a pricey food) to the dog, let him into the bed when parents were away, forgo our pocket money to get him vaccines etc. I used to pet neighbors dogs. I love dogs within reason.

But it is these b*st*rd dog owners that let their dogs off leash that get me. The vitaparcour signboard clear forbids cyclists, and shows the dogs to be on leash in red. I don't care much for throwing rules at people's faces, to me it is more a matter of simple consideration. Why can't people just live and let live?

Am I paranoid? Well, yes, I love my health, I have avoided injury or ailment by extra effort; I derive my life's pleasure from some of the freest things on the planet: good air and nature. I don't speak the local languages, I don't even have a phone, don't know any doctor here and am clueless where to seek first aid should I be bitten. I just feel so vulnerable. Maybe because I come from a country where tens of thousands of people die horribly painful deaths from dog-bite rabies even today, it is now in my instincts and see vaccinated dogs with equal fear.
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Old 07.03.2010, 20:38
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

In my neighborhood in Bangalore, I had almost stopped running lately because of stray dogs running loose. And when I ran I used to carry stones or sticks to protect myself. Or keep changing my route when I see dogs.

Heck, I thought switzerland is a highly developed nation, but today it is hitting me hard, every country has warts and pimples behind the facade of rules and organized society.
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Old 07.03.2010, 20:52
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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The thing is, so long as people kill debate (and in this forum, that means groans and filthy red blobs), people just collect their angst and turn evil..
You don't mean to say there is a pack mentality in place here?
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Old 07.03.2010, 20:54
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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Edit: Ok, maybe this should be moved to complaints corner.

Possible, but if I were posting such things, I really would mean that, shooting insensitive dog owners, to start with.

It is rare for me to show outbursts on the forum, but today I am literally shaking, partly in fear and mostly a mix of shame from the fright I got from dogs. I am feeling violated.

Thing is, I love this country, the naturewegs mean the whole earth to me but one of my weakness if you may call that, is I have a rational fear of dogs. i.e. I get scared **** when they charge me with a growl (I am not a 3 year old, I have a 10 year old myself, I can make out when it is not a friendly ball of fur coming at me).

Just an hour ago, after a week of living in Ruti I finally discovered the name of the hill I used to see daily, I discovered the Vitaparcours and I was so happy, I was running like a free bird. And here comes a walker with two dogs off leash, they charge me. I freeze in fear and look like a vulnerable child at the dog owner, seeking his intervention. Don't get me wrong, I was wearing thick shoes and gloves today, I could just as well have mauled the dog. I just didn't do it else I would regret it. Okay, nothing happened, the owner said something in German, most likely that his dogs are adorable and don't mean to bite, yada yada. For some of you not affected, this story is a storm in a tea cup and source of entertainment.

But sad thing for me is, in a picture perfect place like this, I have to live with this one little thing sticking out like a sore thumb. It happened with me when I figured out the Uetliberg vitaparcours after months of effort, a dog that almost got me, it was on leash but the leash was extensible and the lady had not locked it. Then I moved to Zug, I had to pass by a house daily and the dog used to yap at my heels almost every single day, its walking time coincided with my office-going time.

In one of the earlier posts someone was saying how Nick would have turned a nice dog into a biter by teaching his kid to throw stone. Today I am able to see the other face of it, why someone the other day had poisoned 5 dogs in oerlikon. The thing is, so long as people kill debate (and in this forum, that means groans and filthy red blobs), people just collect their angst and turn evil.

Look at the irony, I am a dog lover myself. We had a ferocious dog that we loved and kept for 10 years when I was young. As children we used to surreptitiously pass on our share of meat (a pricey food) to the dog, let him into the bed when parents were away, forgo our pocket money to get him vaccines etc. I used to pet neighbors dogs. I love dogs within reason.

But it is these b*st*rd dog owners that let their dogs off leash that get me. The vitaparcour signboard clear forbids cyclists, and shows the dogs to be on leash in red. I don't care much for throwing rules at people's faces, to me it is more a matter of simple consideration. Why can't people just live and let live?

Am I paranoid? Well, yes, I love my health, I have avoided injury or ailment by extra effort; I derive my life's pleasure from some of the freest things on the planet: good air and nature. I don't speak the local languages, I don't even have a phone, don't know any doctor here and am clueless where to seek first aid should I be bitten. I just feel so vulnerable. Maybe because I come from a country where tens of thousands of people die horribly painful deaths from dog-bite rabies even today, it is now in my instincts and see vaccinated dogs with equal fear.
Good post! Yeah I think I'm a little like that too. I love dogs, like my own dog and other people's dogs who I know them and know their dogs, but I just have a fear of unknown dogs especially ones running loose. Maybe I need to learn to get over the fear but I can't help it. But it's not a totally irrational fear because some dogs really do go after people especially the ones who the owners don't know that they got out of the fence and things like that. You can't just say oh if he was a biter the owner would keep him in a fence or on a leash what if he accidentally got away somehow? But I'm fine when it's someone's dog who I know, or my own dog. I just get scared seeing unknown dogs running loose. It's not just in Switzerland either, people do that in American parks too.
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Old 07.03.2010, 21:05
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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Try renting a couple of videos on dog behavior if you are really that confused about it. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between bared teeth, snapping and snarling aggressive tense dog approaching and a happy open mouthed friendly galloping one, especially if he is playing with his other doggy mates. People do not bring 'out for blood' dogs to public parks and have them off leash. The fact that Nick could identify the owner of the dog means to me that the dogs were close enough to their owner to be considered reasonably well behaved.
a) as a kid?
b) proximity a good dog does not make

I'm an owner of a devil dog and I always leash him. I like to keep him close and although he stays close when off, I like the guarantee. Plus it's about other people's perceptions of HIM.

I don't feel the need for people to watch videos to understand my dog. They just have to feel comfortable that he's under my control when they're living THEIR lives.

You're wrong on so many levels. And that's from me with a chip on my shoulder from all the people judging both me and my pet before they know me.
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Old 07.03.2010, 21:19
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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...
And don't get me started with English parents who let their kids run wild in restaurants and cafés as if it's a playground ...
Of all the comments you've made, that is without a doubt the most offensive, racist and, by being in the context of uncontrolled dogs, the dumbest thing you've posted, and quite possibly one of the most willfully ignorant and puerile posts I've read on these forums.

Here's a ball


Go play with it while the adults talk.
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Old 07.03.2010, 21:27
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

As an ardent runner, I'd personally like a compulsory "keep killer wolves on their leash rule", but the most ferocious mutts are the ones in the country on farmyards where they feel that they have to defend their territory. Before all the canine lovers bombard me with their tales of Lassie saving mankind and making this planet a better place to live and we just don't understand them, etc. (yada yada, yawn...) I'd rather these domesticated wolves just understood their place in the evolutionary scheme of things and bow and applaud when I pass them on the forest and countryside trails. B*stards.
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Old 07.03.2010, 21:35
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Pretty strong wording there.... usually I'd tend to be a bit softer as I do really like dogs, but just 2 days ago I had a terrible scare when this humongous white dog decided to defend his territory. Found out just how quickly I can run in heels !!!!!

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As an ardent runner, I'd personally like a compulsory "keep killer wolves on their leash rule", but the most ferocious mutts are the ones in the country on farmyards where they feel that they have to defend their territory. Before all the canine lovers bombard me with their tales of Lassie saving mankind and making this planet a better place to live and we just don't understand them, etc. (yada yada, yawn...) I'd rather these domesticated wolves just understood their place in the evolutionary scheme of things and bow and applaud when I pass them on the forest and countryside trails. B*stards.
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Old 07.03.2010, 21:42
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Rabina,
I am not exaggerating, you just reminded me of an encounter I had in Zugerberg last month: it stays in a farmhouse mid-way up, he REALLY is as big and looks like a wolf. I was on the proper asphalt route that day, not infringing on anyone's land, he was free and he started following me for a quite some time. I didn't think farm wolf-dogs follow people unless they mean business.

In my mind I began furiously going over my next moves, (that day it was snowy, I had hiking sticks), how, if attacked I was to remove the tip cap and impale him with my sharp hiking pole, I took my glove off in anticipation, thought where I will go next to seek help for my injuries (impaling a wolf is not so easy), it was a desolate place with no human in sight or earshot, just a vast meadow and some huge horses over the fence. My lucky stars, after 300m, he grew bored and left me.

I still don't hold anything against the dog, but then my safety is first and foremost for me.

Ok. I have stopped shaking now. Thanks for reading and commenting
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Old 07.03.2010, 22:09
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

It's interesting reading the speculation surrounding my son's encounter; people drawing conclusions about my son's behaviour. I did not give a fully detailed account of the incident in original post - however this is a post in a discussion forum and not a police statement.

The dogs in question stuck their noses in my son's face - and while they did not bite, to have a large dog do such a thing when you are about a metre high is not the most pleasant thing to have happen.

As noted before, my family had a series of large dogs and I do appreciate that as a dog owner, try as you might there will be occasions when your dog gets out of hand and either jumps up at someone (friendly or otherwise) or snaps at another dog before you have a chance to get it under control. In such circumstances I considered it my duty as a dog owner to (i) apologise to the offended party and (ii) discipline the dog.

The owners of the dogs in this incident did not do anything to bring the dogs under control nor did they make any attempt to apologise to me or my son. In fact, had they done the latter, I probably wouldn't have bothered writing about it here.

As noted by somebody else, the Vita Parcours is not the place to walk a dog - and don't get me started about the dog turds that litter the place.

Cheers,
Nick
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