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Old 21.02.2010, 14:00
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Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Today I was running around the Vita Parcours [exercise trail] with my small son - who was also making a good effort at all the exercise stations.

On the trail there was a couple who had 3-4 large dogs including a Great Dane and an Alsatian [German Shepherd] all of which were off the lead and came bounding up to my son (who is just short of 3 years old) and gave him a real fright - the poor little lad was totally shocked and in floods of tears.

The couple did nothing to apologise to me or my son - instead the excuse given (I think with regard to the Dane) was "he's just a baby". I told the inconsiderate **** that my son is also just a baby and that people who own large dogs have a duty to keep them under control - especially in a public park. They also accused my son of not being under control - not possible as he was holding my hand and immediately cowered behind me as soon as he saw the dogs.

I was really too concerned about comforting my son to spend time remonstrating with these idiots - I wish I had the presence of mind to take down their car number and report it to the police.

Normally I forbid my son to throw stones, however today I told him in the case of a nasty dog, he is allowed to throw a stone right at the dog - and preferably get the bugger between the eyes.

Note to self: buy pepper spray and a catapult.

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 21.02.2010, 14:06
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

for a real catapult, you'll find it in a gun shop.... good hunt


There's stupid people everywhere and that's that kind of **** that make people scared of dogs...

Hug to your son.
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Old 21.02.2010, 14:16
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Thanks for the moral support. No doubt they will only sell a catty to a Red Pass holder. They are actually quite easy to make - all you need is some strips off and old inner-tube, and a strong fork-shaped twig.

For what it's worth, I actually like big dogs - grew up with them - we had a Rottweiler and a Bull Mastiff at my parents; and the only way is to assert your authority on them - which this couple did not do.

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for a real catapult, you'll find it in a gun shop.... good hunt

There's stupid people everywhere and that's that kind of **** that make people scared of dogs...

Hug to your son.
Cheers,
Nick
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Old 21.02.2010, 14:21
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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Normally I forbid my son to throw stones, however today I told him in the case of a nasty dog, he is allowed to throw a stone right at the dog - and preferably get the bugger between the eyes.
So you taught your son to turn an over-friendly dog into an angry dog. I hope that works out for you.
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Old 21.02.2010, 15:11
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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So you taught your son to turn an over-friendly dog into an angry dog. I hope that works out for you.
Agreed. It seems frustration should be directed at the owners, and not at the dog. If the child threw a stone and hurt the pup, its behaviour could turn from friendly to downright nasty- to more than just your babe.

My sister was attacked by a terrier (not the typical attack dog) when she was two-- it exposed the bone on her nose with it's top teeth, and ripped through her lower lip. Since she was so young, there was barely a scar. But more importantly, she continued to love dogs and never felt afraid. The scary things in life make us more resilient. It's good for kids to be scared sometimes.

I don't want to sound preachy because I know I'd be protective over my child, too, and expect that owners to have some compassion for a child.
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Old 21.02.2010, 15:15
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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So you taught your son to turn an over-friendly dog into an angry dog. I hope that works out for you.
It's what I was taught to do when I was a kid - worked every time.

Airguns are also quite effective.

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 21.02.2010, 15:24
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

A professional dog trainer will warn you not to knee down to play with a large/medium size dog. This is because a dog will feel being challenged when someone is at their same height level. Sometimes this could turn a very nice, kind gentle dog into hostile mode and even attack you. That's why they normally are more hostile to kids than adults.

Large dog needs to have leash. The dog owner you ran into is just an irresponsible bxxxx.

From a self-defence point of view, but please do not ask your kid to throw stone as it will further provoke the dog to attack. Pepper spray might work but surely you don't want a 3-years old to use it but I think you should carry it with you for protection if you are in the same situation again. Like what I mentioned earlier, the height of a 3 year old kid will pretty much at same height level as large dog so even if he did nothing, he could be vulnerable to attack.
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Old 21.02.2010, 15:52
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

I read one tale about a cop who was confronted with an aggressive rottweiler. He slipped his truncheon through the dog's collar - which was a metal chain - and garotted it.

Some interesting insights here too.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=337

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 21.02.2010, 16:18
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

I have now found the perfect way to deal with my dislike of inconsiderate dog owners:

http://www.rrrrthats5rs.com/games/dont-shoot-the-puppy/

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 21.02.2010, 16:32
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Your absolutely correct to be miffed with the inconsiderate owners whose dogs were not on a lead, I get narked when it happens to me, when I'm out with my dogs. However if they weren't aggressive and you encorage you kid to throw stones at these dogs, the curiosity could well turn to aggression, and that could be very hazzarous to you or your kids health.

Air guns and garotes, are just a ridicoulous over reaction, you beef is with the owners.


EDIT: Maybe it was donavirs dogs.... dont' ya just love a drive by groaner

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Old 21.02.2010, 20:03
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Hi Nick,

Thank you for your post and I hope you and your kid are feeling better now. Experiences like these show us what to do in other similar situations.


I needed to reinforce that it is normal for a young dog to want to play with a child,specially when they are puppies they need to interact, it is normal, but for a child this can be real scary.
Make sure your child knows some rules about dogs:

- teach your child not to touch a dog if the animal is eating, drinking or sleeping
- explain to your child that he should never show fear, this can make an aggressive dog even more aggressive
- teach your child to stay still and not move if a dog comes running, usually a dog only has interest in something that is moving and will surely chase if the child keeps running
- teach your child to avoid looking in the dogs eyes, that can be also felt as a threat to the dog

in any case if the dog gets aggressive and violent do not hesitate to use all means to defend your child and yourself. Please do not judge dogs by the breed: big dogs can be very gentle and educated too.
As a dog owner I always used the lead and that helped me to prevent trouble. As a child I was taught those few principles and it helped me a lot: once I left too late from my campus with the gate already closed and the security dogs running to me. I just stood still because I knew I had no chance to escape, I looked away and just stood , not a move,nothing ( inside I was absolutely shocked and in panic, at least 5 dogs were running in my direction and did not seem friendly at all), when arrived they barked endlessly near my body waiting for a reaction, I kept still and not looking them in the eye, they kept on barking louder and louder until they got tired and went away. Maybe they were just bad guards, but I was surely relieved!
Never show fear to a dog, teach your child (you can even practice) and that can save him many bad experiences.

All the best
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Old 21.02.2010, 21:46
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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- teach your child not to touch a dog if the animal is eating, drinking or sleeping
- explain to your child that he should never show fear, this can make an aggressive dog even more aggressive
- teach your child to stay still and not move if a dog comes running, usually a dog only has interest in something that is moving and will surely chase if the child keeps running
- teach your child to avoid looking in the dogs eyes, that can be also felt as a threat to the dog
It's easy to say than practice especially it's only a kid....
Also, it only applies for 'normal dog' --the one with previous training.
I think the more important is the self-discipline of those dog owners.

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once I left too late from my campus with the gate already closed and the security dogs running to me. I just stood still because I knew I had no chance to escape, I looked away and just stood , not a move,nothing ( inside I was absolutely shocked and in panic, at least 5 dogs were running in my direction and did not seem friendly at all), when arrived they barked endlessly near my body waiting for a reaction, I kept still and not looking them in the eye, they kept on barking louder and louder until they got tired and went away. Maybe they were just bad guards, but I was surely relieved!
Never show fear to a dog, teach your child (you can even practice) and that can save him many bad experiences.

All the best
i wouldn't say it's a good example. You are just lucky ! These dogs are ready to attack. The fact you didn't move might still tempt the dog to 'test' the 'enemy' because they know they outweigh you now. There're so many unknown factors in the situation especially one don't speak dog's language ! It's almost impossible to freak out for most people and that's when the moment the dog bite.

How could you be not fear about dog without the mind set of being able to defend ? I mean by not fear of something, you have in your mind how to deal with it without losing ground ! From my view, one should be alert and ready to defend for case like this.
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Old 23.02.2010, 12:44
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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It's easy to say than practice especially it's only a kid....From my view, one should be alert and ready to defend for case like this.
I was a kid when a German Shepard came running alone in the street and as I saw it I also started running away in panic. My brother shouted to me many times:« stay still! stay still!» but I was so afraid I just kept running, the dog was faster and faster, he did not even see my brother who kept standing still not moving and chased me until he jumped with his paws on my back making me fall down and doing horrible sounds next to my head. This was so quick and as soon he came he went away running.

I know I was lucky not to get bitten, my knees were the only thing that was bleeding but after many tears and complains I understood why he chased me, from that day on I was taught to never show fear to a dog or to start running away even if I was completely frightened.

There is no excuse for these things to happen, dog owners should be responsible for them but in reality this is not always the case: here in Basel I often see many dogs without the lead, and in many other countries the same.
I think «being alert and ready to defend» is absolutely needed but defending yourself does not mean attacking the dog as soon as you see one? It really depends much on what the situation really is ( what is the dog doing and why) and what kind of dog we are talking about (educated or not) that is the main difficulty.
Lange Erlen is in fact a place where there are always dogs running with the owners, fetching sticks most of the times without being on the lead.
Maybe I would avoid this place if I had a small child with me, at least where I think is is more difficult to get any help ( the zoo and the restaurant parts have always workers and public attending). Sorry for not giving you an effective answer but until irresponsible owners are fined it is difficult to find a solution besides defending yourself and calling the police if an attack occurs.
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Old 23.02.2010, 12:52
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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Today I was running around the Vita Parcours [exercise trail] with my small son - who was also making a good effort at all the exercise stations.

On the trail there was a couple who had 3-4 large dogs including a Great Dane and an Alsatian [German Shepherd] all of which were off the lead and came bounding up to my son (who is just short of 3 years old) and gave him a real fright - the poor little lad was totally shocked and in floods of tears.

The couple did nothing to apologise to me or my son - instead the excuse given (I think with regard to the Dane) was "he's just a baby". I told the inconsiderate **** that my son is also just a baby and that people who own large dogs have a duty to keep them under control - especially in a public park. They also accused my son of not being under control - not possible as he was holding my hand and immediately cowered behind me as soon as he saw the dogs.

I was really too concerned about comforting my son to spend time remonstrating with these idiots - I wish I had the presence of mind to take down their car number and report it to the police.

Normally I forbid my son to throw stones, however today I told him in the case of a nasty dog, he is allowed to throw a stone right at the dog - and preferably get the bugger between the eyes.

Note to self: buy pepper spray and a catapult.

Cheers,
Nick
I am really sorry that your son had to go through such an unpleasant experience with dogs. I agree that it was extremely irresponsible of the dog owners not to recall their dogs when they saw them bounding up to a 3 year old child, who I guess, is physically smaller than them.

These kind of owners really give other dog owners a bad name - same applies to dog owners who dont pick up after their dogs. "He's just a baby" is no excuse.

I do hope you are joking or speaking through anger about throwing stones and buying a catapult to shoot at the dogs though. If not, please understand that a misbehaving dog is not its fault. Its a result of the lack of discipline on the owner's part, so take it out on the owner instead, not the dog.
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Old 23.02.2010, 13:13
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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I do hope you are joking or speaking through anger about throwing stones and buying a catapult to shoot at the dogs though. If not, please understand that a misbehaving dog is not its fault. Its a result of the lack of discipline on the owner's part, so take it out on the owner instead, not the dog.

too true, I have my trusty catapult at hand when those annoying misbehaving out of control children come running up to my dog and poke her and pet her, she doesn't like children you see, they make her timid, and of course it's the childs fault they have done this so i will take it out on them and not their parents

Nick I was with you on your post right up to the last two paragraphs.... for someone I have always thought talked a lot of sense on here I was surprised to read that

I hope your child grows up NOT to fear dogs and NOT to be aggressive to dogs, we need fewer aggressive dogs in the world, we don't need to create more

Last edited by Nickers; 28.02.2010 at 11:11.
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Old 23.02.2010, 15:35
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Give nick a break. I am sure she was very upset when she wrote it. You really dont want your kids to go through this experience and the child is practically a baby. It is dog owners responsibility to make sure the dog does not attack anyone. They need to be vigilant.
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Old 23.02.2010, 15:36
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

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It is dog owners responsibility to make sure the dog does not attack anyone. They need to be vigilant.

exactly, we all agree - hence catapults and stones at the dog is not the answer and I think Nick might be a he
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Old 23.02.2010, 15:56
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

Does the park in which you were running allow dogs to run off-lead? Although you state that it is a public park, it may be designated as a dog park, in which case dogs have just as much legal right to run around as you and your son. However, dog owners, just like parents, should be vigilent, and ensure that their "offspring" behave responsibily. Perhaps you would care to check which parks in your area are off limits to dogs, and then you and your son can run around without fear of being greeted by over-friendly canines.
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Old 23.02.2010, 16:11
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

inside the farm/zoo dogs cannot run without lead. Outside in the forest i think they can. I have seen a lot of dogs there. Its such a nice place with trees ans river and my children really enjoy going in the forest but usually people with dogs are careful, especially around kids.
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Old 25.02.2010, 14:41
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Re: Lange Erlen (public park) and dogs

nickatbasel,

I hate what happened to you and your son. Having large breed dogs, or any size dog, run at you child, even with no malice, must be terrifying for him. Dog owners should always have control of their animals, it's their responsibility as good owners.

But equally I can not condone your advice to your son. The Dogs are not at fault, the owners are. An aggressive action could have unknown consequences when dealing with an animal. I would hate to think your son could act upon you advice and wind up a victim of a dog attack by provoking a playful dog.

IMO its best to teach your son not to be afraid of dogs. And to teach him the difference between a dog who is playing and one who is aggressive.
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