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  #41  
Old 19.03.2010, 11:35
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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mama allways told me the only way you can get on a train free is if you sit in the convinences and ignore the knocking just sa hatchooo or uchmmmmm theyl leave you as they do not want to get into problems
There were 4 football supporters on a train, two Basel fans and two Zurich fans.

When they got to the ticket office the Zurich fans each bought a one way ticket, but the Basel fans bought just a single ticket between them.

"How are you going to get away with that?" asked the Zurich fans.

"Watch and learn!" replied the Basel fans.

When the train had pulled out of the station both Basel fans went into a toilet and locked the door. The Zurich fans watched intently.

A couple of minutes later the ticket inspector came down the train and knocked on the door of the toilet and shouted, "Tickets please". The Basel fans pushed their ticket under the door and the inspector happily moved on.

The Zurich fans agreed to try this on their return journey.

Sure enough that afternoon the same four supporters met in the ticket office on their way back home. As planned the two Zurich supporters bought just one ticket between them but this time the Basel supporters didn't buy any tickets at all.

"How are you going to get away with that?" asked the Zurich fans.

"Watch and learn!" replied the Basel fans.

When the train had pulled out of the station both Zurich fans went to a toilet and locked the door.

A couple of minutes later one of the Basel supporters knocked on the door of the toilet and shouted, "Tickets please".
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  #42  
Old 19.03.2010, 15:02
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

Just an update. I figured it was worth spending 3 minutes to see what could be done. The number called actually had an option for English, which made things easier.

The guy on the other end reduced the fine from 80CHF to 30CHF, he did ask whether that was OK and I figured it wasn't worth spending the time to try to push the amount further down.
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  #43  
Old 19.03.2010, 15:23
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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...i had a few beers that night which may have contributed to my lack of perspicacity...
Excuse me, but that's a five-syllable word.

Some of us around here are quite capable of lacking perspicacity without external aid, and without even knowing the meaning of the word, let alone being able to pronounce it.
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  #44  
Old 19.03.2010, 16:52
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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I was so upset when the SBB guy wanted to give me a ticket of 150 for a mistake I made. I honestly thought I'd done the right thing, I paid for eveyrthing I thought I needed to pay for, and here this man was telling me that it was my 3rd strike and on top of the 150 fine it would be registered on my criminal record.
I wonder if SBB hires Gestapo officers to punish people who mess up with tickets and zones..
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  #45  
Old 19.03.2010, 17:04
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

On the question of criminal records, I recall it having been posted in a past thread that paying the fine in cash obviates the requirement for being ID'd — that you can just pay the SFr 80- anonymously and be done with it. Maybe one also foregoes any option to get the fine reduced and refunded(?), but that still sounds preferable to me, rather than having myself permanently on record as a rule-breaker in CH.
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  #46  
Old 19.03.2010, 17:37
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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I've seen a few get away with it by pretending to be asleep.
I did that once, not quite as much fun when I woke up and the train had been put away for the night in the sidings at Brugg.
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  #47  
Old 19.03.2010, 17:43
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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...DB, after assessing your knowledge of our train system here, I'd suggest you to be placed in one of my advanced courses.
lol Einstufungstest!
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  #48  
Old 19.03.2010, 18:19
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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Accidently sat in first class? It really is quite obvious.

Could you not have just told the inspector that you where going for a walk?
I had once a hard time explaining that I really was looking for the toilet an not trying to sneak into the 1st class. I just went in the wrong direction and ended up in 1st class. With a bag in my hand (don't trust anybody), it was really hard. I was back on interrogation after I just pushed him on the side, rushed into the toilet. Coming out again, I smiled and asked straight away "Now, How can I help you?" (In German). My argumentation was basically that the fine for urinating on him would be far more expensive. Mind you... the guy had humour, he even smiled and let me go.

But I can confirm that they are very suspicious in the Basel-Chur.
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  #49  
Old 20.03.2010, 09:30
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

Are people seriously suggesting that SBB instectors can, if so inclined, do you for walking through 1st class ??
The concept has never ever even crossed my mind before reading this thread!

If they tried to do me for this, I think I'd have to use a lot of will power to to stop myself either laughing hysterically & walking off, or giving the chap a quick punch to the nose as a reprimand for extreme taking of the urine
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Old 20.03.2010, 09:58
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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I've seen a few get away with it by pretending to be asleep.
not on s-trains. and if on a IC....might be they have been checked before you came on the train...
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  #51  
Old 20.03.2010, 10:48
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

I personally prefer hiding in the gap between the adjoining back-to-back seats. Be sure to wear something dark.



Of course its easier on the single deckers (not pictured) as the space in the double deckers is very cramped.

PS - they hardly ever find me.
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  #52  
Old 20.03.2010, 11:30
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

Being fined for being (standing or sitting) in First Class with a standard ticket is common. Here's an April 2008 article from The Daly Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...rst-class.html These stories are so common that I can't recall whether it was in response to this one or a similar one that a letter-writer pointed out that the correct demarche to make to the conductor is not to claim mistake but to ask for an upgrade ticket "surclassement".

The conductor has flexibility handling the situation, the "fraud patrol" is unlikely to be accommodating and I haven't been able to find in a quick online search (even on that great rail Web site http://www.seat61.com ) whether buying an upgrade is specifically provided for in the tariffs EXCEPT in the case where you notify the conductor BEFORE taking the First Class seat.

There is basic unfairness in imposing a fine for standing in the First Class lobby, and it's a question of proof (presumably, if it's not a "civil fine" but a penal matter, with the burden of proof on the prosecution) if you claim to be "passing through" to the dining car or the toilet and the congestion made further passage impossible.

I recall a public scandal where a conductor tried to fine a disabled person who was blocked.

Of course if the Swiss train is conductor-less, there's no excuse and a fine is inevitable. Although even in Belgium (where I was a student) I've had the benefit of discretion: I was on the route to Leuven with a ticket for from London to Louvain-la-Neuve and was able to put the discrepancy down to "an ignorant ticket agent at British Rail (as it was)"; and once when seated in the (indistinguishable) First Class section of the shuttle train between Leuven and Louvain-la-Neuve the conductor was actually quite gracious in pointing out my mistake.

So it all depends. But claiming to have wanted to upgrade all along to First Class due to the congestion in the train is the best bet.

There is railroad law, and you should ask to see a copy of the provisions dealing with (1) fines for using first class and (2) opportunity to upgrade while en route (something we've often done when we found trains more crowded than expected).

If I had more time I'm sure I could get info and anecdotes online.
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Old 20.03.2010, 14:14
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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These stories are so common that I can't recall whether it was in response to this one or a similar one that a letter-writer pointed out that the correct demarche to make to the conductor is not to claim mistake but to ask for an upgrade ticket "surclassement".

Right. Which reminded me of a point I wanted to make earlier.

I believe some of those conductors can be reasoned with. I once forgot my wallet at home. Without any Identification, my GA nor money; I embarrassingly and contritely explained to the conductor what had happened. Sensing my authenticity about the matter, he let me pass with my promise to show my GA at a ticket window the next day. He even gave me a voucher for my return trip. Therefore, perhaps some of us do indeed walk in the light. But then again, I was suited up and with a briefcase to go to work. Perhaps that helped.
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  #54  
Old 20.03.2010, 15:13
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

Another article on railroad arbitrariness, the unpredictability, of what the rules are (in the UK, but read on):
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2310418.ece

The rule in Switzerland is (seemingly) more consistent at least: "CFF: il faut payer pour transiter par la 1ère classe!BILLETS | Un passager avec un billet de 2e classe n’a pas le droit de descendre ou de monter dans le train par un wagon de 1re classe."
http://www.24heures.ch/cff-exigent-s...ain-2009-11-24 The comment appended by Par jujubrunch le 24.11.2009 - 12:33 suggests that a sensible conductor would, at worst, demand the First Class supplement, not impose an 80-franc fine.

Here's an article from Le Matin on the same incident: http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/cf...e-train-195112 It seems that all the papers, German and French, carried the story.

The operation of trains in Europe depends on three levels of laws: international treaties (enabling the sale of tickets and the use of railway rolling stock across borders), national laws and implementing regulations, and company rules. Years ago I had occasion to research the treaties (the fact that they have not been changed in years leads to international tickets being printed on a standard, large-format, card).

Aside from the fabulous "Man in Seat 61" Web site http://www.seat61.com covering rail throughout the world, several consumer sites discuss passenger rights:
http://www.litra.ch/Les_droits_des_p...rontalier.html
http://passion-trains.over-blog.com/...-39956126.html (This is a discussion of the 24 November story on a rail-user site)
http://www3.cfl.lu/NR/rdonlyres/FF1A...R_internet.pdf (published by Luxembourg Railways: restated rights of passengers throughout Europe)
http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/fr/abb-civ.pdf (Swiss railways' Rules on international travel)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/as/1998/2847.pdf (Swiss law pertaining to railways)
http://www.railsuisse.ch/indexliens.html ("Portail ferroviaire suisse")

I've been unable (so far) to find online the legal basis for CFF/SBB practice, and the apparently arbitrary choice of conductor or inspector as between imposing a fine (plus the supplement) or simply collecting the supplement. The best statement is here: http://www.24heures.ch/cff-amendes-salees-2009-12-23

My conclusion is that any incursion into first class territory is risky, but that if it's only to get to the dining car (say) the risk is small. Otherwise (and this is the rule in Belgium) if one's ticket is out of order it is up to the passenger to notify the conductor before getting on the train. It's up to the conductor, then, how far (if at all) to relax that rule. I've told conductors on the Leuven-Louvain la Neuve shuttle line (which passes through many stations without ticket windows, where tickets are bought on the train) that I didn't have time to buy a ticket and he's waved me aboard.

So it all depends.

And even the OFT is in disagreement: "L'OFT avait ainsi donné raison à un voyageur contrôlé entre Zurich et Schaffhouse dans un wagon de première alors qu'il n'avait qu'un ticket de seconde. L'OFT avait trouvé injuste de lui faire payer la même taxe qu'un passager sans billet." (From the 24heures article cited above.)

The best strategy, I would argue, is (if you are in an irregular situation) to notify the conductor as soon as you spot him or her that you would like to buy a supplement for your Second Class ticket from the last station (where, presumably you moved onto First Class territory) to where you are getting off. Whether that actually works as a defense in a Swiss court I can't say, but it would seem embarrassing for the enforcement authorities to prosecute such a case. And ridicule is the best defence: making an ambiguous law look stupid and those who defend and enforce it like officious twits.

The question of "surclassement" does not appear in the CFF FAQ: http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/fr/faqs.htm
CFF/SBB's conditions of carriage and internal regulations do not seem to be online.

It's worth complaining about to the authorities.
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Old 20.03.2010, 18:12
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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I'll happily be your guest teacher.
'If everything fails, how to successfully talk your way out of a fine' -for girls.
I'd pay just to watch ...
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Old 20.03.2010, 19:29
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

Quite right. I hate having to share first class with poor people.

Cheers,
Nick

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I think it's perfectly justified.

After all, the odour of poverty does tend to linger, even after the offender has moved to the appropriate carriage.
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Old 26.03.2010, 16:10
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

The same happen to me, i was a freshie still and make the mistake of sitting in 1st class....i got fined but my fab husband wrote a letter to someone (sorry hes swiss so i leave that stuff for him to sort out) saying i was new in the country and had made a mistake.....they reduced the fine to 40 CH...result
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Old 01.04.2010, 17:18
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

well i always travel without a ticket. i usually break even at the end of the month!
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Old 01.04.2010, 17:21
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

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Are people seriously suggesting that SBB instectors can, if so inclined, do you for walking through 1st class ??
The concept has never ever even crossed my mind before reading this thread!

If they tried to do me for this, I think I'd have to use a lot of will power to to stop myself either laughing hysterically & walking off, or giving the chap a quick punch to the nose as a reprimand for extreme taking of the urine
yes. i think there was a case publicised in 20 minuten where someone was done for passing through the train and the fine was upheld. in that case the man was running late and so got on the first carriage (1st class) and walked immediately to the 2nd class carriage.
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Old 05.08.2018, 11:30
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Re: Finally got caught on the train 80CHF fine

Some time has passed without activity on this thread but to add to the list of woes

I yesterday accidentally sat in first class and got a fine. I was really puzzled how I had made the mistake. When I got off, I saw that the train door was marked '2' on the left and '1' on the right. As far as I could tell, if you walked left as you embarked, you went downstairs and it was second class. If you walked right, you went upstairs and it was first class. I had approached the door from the left side and seen the 2 but decided to go upstairs which was immediately on the right side after entering.

As it happened the ticket inspector was accompanied by two police officers or train security officers, not sure. One of the officers seemed to think that the way to handle someone who accidentally wandered into first class is to fix them with the evil eye. Don't like to think what happens when she catches someone who committed a real crime. Oh well, live and learn.
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