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  #341  
Old 18.05.2021, 14:19
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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Yeah, I went straight to the ZAV, since I wasn't registered in any gemeinde. They did everything they could to avoid accepting me into the system. Spent months at the röntgenstrasse shelter and heils armee, receiving no money or integration assistance (but food and shelter). Eventually, after they realized I wasn't going to give up, they cut the bs, followed the law, and accepted my application, and I got a flatshare with some algerians I met at the salvation army.

First basisbeschäftigung, then german classes (b1 telc), and later various jobs they have set up to motivate us and I assume manipulate unemployment statistics. There are a lot of people working in the so-called second job market. You do have to work while on welfare here. And they have job search quotas.

After years of trying unsuccessfully to find a job in "the first market," and after being told I was autistic, presumably because I like consistency and logic, I was encouraged by the gemeinde to seek help from IV.

The idea was an Umschulung, integration, not a pension, though as know it's one application. I was sent to two different institutions, both of which just passively collected money and stressed loyalty to the scam. Most of us were very young. If you're 18, getting 4k+ a month at your fake apprenticeship, while your normie friends are getting 900, you aren't very likely to make a fuss about not doing or learning anything. I was considerably older, and did make a fuss, before being told to shut up and take the money by my IV berater. One of the institutions was receiving chf 5850 a month for each one of us, and there were about 70. To another poster pointing out that some people get 120k for doing nothing, I'm assuming it's not 120k of obligatory public insurance contributions (essentially your tax money), unless they're IV employees.

Did that for 3 years before being told I can't be integrated, "you seem unable to learn the skills necessary to integrate into the first job market, for example, following rules without question- "das Diskusionslose annehmen von Auftraege" whatever that means - nevermind that there was no work, or that it shouldn't take 3 years to make such a determination.

Pension is only meant to be considered after integration measures have been exhausted. I've tried pointing out the fact that none were ever seriously tried, but I'm retarded, I suppose . What would i know?

Paradoxically sent to RAV, since IV money includes RAV contributions, by the same people who told me I couldn't work. Did that for a few months but then became overwhelmed with cognitive dissonance and a kind of ptsd, returned to the gemeinde, while I await the ridiculous pension review. 1.5 years and counting.

To those speculating why I'm posting this. I'm not sure. Nobody really engages with me critically on the subject. And it's your money. Even if it's all on me, why was it allowed to happen? Where's SVP when you need them? I think I do have some bad character traits, but I also think that swiss institutions are ridiculous, corrupt, and incompetent. Change my mind.
I think it's not that institutions are corrupt and incompetent.

Without going into details, in your case it might have been a problem of figuring out what the problem really is.

I imagine you have been seeing a psychiatrist or at least some doctors in order to have a proper diagnosis.

If your health problem has been verified and certified by a doctor, might it be ptsd, being autistic or else, there is a whole support system to help integrate (but you seem to have made up your mind about such institutions, though).
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  #342  
Old 18.05.2021, 15:09
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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First basisbeschäftigung, then german classes (b1 telc)

After years of trying unsuccessfully to find a job in "the first market," and after being told I was autistic, presumably because I like consistency and logic

The idea was an Umschulung, integration, not a pension, though as know it's one application. I was sent to two different institutions, both of which just passively collected money and stressed loyalty to the scam.

Did that for 3 years before being told I can't be integrated, "you seem unable to learn the skills necessary to integrate into the first job market, for example, following rules without question- "das Diskusionslose annehmen von Auftraege" whatever that means - nevermind that there was no work, or that it shouldn't take 3 years to make such a determination.

To those speculating why I'm posting this. I'm not sure. Nobody really engages with me critically on the subject. And it's your money. Even if it's all on me, why was it allowed to happen? Where's SVP when you need them? I think I do have some bad character traits, but I also think that swiss institutions are ridiculous, corrupt, and incompetent. Change my mind.
Ok, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if you, an educated American with a law degree, have spent 10 years here without learning German to better than B1 level, and without getting any kind of stable job... then it's likely not the system that's the problem, it's you that's the problem.

Unless you are suffering from genuine physical or mental handicaps then I do not see how you have not been able to learn German well enough to get some kind of stable job, even if its in a supermarket. But sure, it's easier to blame everyone else rather than take a long hard look in the mirror.

Ultimately, no-one can change your mind by writing on a forum because you are clearly already deep into your current mindset as a result of your experiences.

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Many forum members here are paid 120k+ to do nothing
Anyone getting paid 120k for a job that doesn't stress them has achieved a significant milestone in life and should probably be applauded.
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  #343  
Old 18.05.2021, 15:30
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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Many forum members here are paid 120k+ to do nothing
I can understand the resentment. I don't do anything either for zero income - where did I go wrong
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  #344  
Old 18.05.2021, 16:00
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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this is media/newspaper provocation - awaiting expat community reaction to see how (non-swiss) respond differently to mainstream as well to official line of gvt.

another of these is "can I get some job just to survive - I have no permit to stay but good reason so please help me"
A provocation planted in 2010 (!) to gauge the expat reaction to details in Swiss citizenship which don’t really concern them a decade later – me thinks*, you over estimate the value of your opinion, milady…

*apologies to whoever concerned
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  #345  
Old 18.05.2021, 16:37
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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After years of trying unsuccessfully to find a job in "the first market," and after being told I was autistic, presumably because I like consistency and logic....
Just there. If the world is wrong and you're right, you're either a visionary that will change the world or simply crazy.

I was once a kid that was good at math, logic and that stuff. At some point, I realized we cannot compete with computers in consistency and logic. It's a fools errand.

Made half-turn and went into the opposite direction, as human I should excel at finding alternatives and solutions because the world is not logic. Order is something that only exists in our heads.

I wont disclose details of my daily job. I can only assure you that logic and consistency do not exist in large multinational companies. It's a mess that works, but it's still a mess.
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  #346  
Old 18.05.2021, 17:39
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

Just was walking today around the forest and landed a job when chatting with nice forest workers about cutting trees - they offered me generous 3500CHF for 4-days work-week and a beer every evening !

I politely declined based on no-drink-and-work relationship principal as I could see myself easily to become an "worko-alco-holic"

So there is jobs everywhere and every Gemainde has wokers on their payrol that would be jobless otherwise and you _will_ but put in that bucket once you have enough strength to move your legs and on social . No matter what.

if OP is addict - that be one of the things when nobody would consider him as fit for work. Another option are IV- guys that have severe war traumas (PTSD) - I know few that didn't hold were after blue-helmet mission

9/10 is just reported returning to the story which he hasn't sold or was nothing to sell to 20-min or alike . Trolling ...
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  #347  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:04
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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I think it's not that institutions are corrupt and incompetent.

Without going into details, in your case it might have been a problem of figuring out what the problem really is.

I imagine you have been seeing a psychiatrist or at least some doctors in order to have a proper diagnosis.

If your health problem has been verified and certified by a doctor, might it be ptsd, being autistic or else, there is a whole support system to help integrate (but you seem to have made up your mind about such institutions, though).
I'm just a retard, but to my mind you don't "figure out what the problem really is" by just giving me and these institutions money. There has been an explosion recently in speculative "psychological" conditions, leading to an opportunity in the market to siphon money from IV. What do you call not properly vetting these institutions and providing any kind of scrutiny or oversight over them? They are incompetent at best, but possibly corrupt (as in paid to ignore the problem). I was literally told to shut up and take the free money, by IV. Either i'm lying or there's a problem here.

But your response is the typical one. "there must be some kind of misunderstanding." lol. "it's complicated." There's an acute problem with the general public being unable to think. I'm glad it works for you, but it's not an option for me. I also don't think that pathologizing reason is ultimately good for society.
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  #348  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:04
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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So there is jobs everywhere and every Gemainde has wokers on their payrol that would be jobless otherwise and you _will_ but put in that bucket once you have enough strength to move your legs and on social . No matter what.
Could you please explain how this works, please?
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  #349  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:07
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Just was walking today around the forest and landed a job when chatting with nice forest workers about cutting trees - they offered me generous 3500CHF for 4-days work-week and a beer every evening !

I politely declined based on no-drink-and-work relationship principal as I could see myself easily to become an "worko-alco-holic"

So there is jobs everywhere and every Gemainde has wokers on their payrol that would be jobless otherwise and you _will_ but put in that bucket once you have enough strength to move your legs and on social . No matter what.

if OP is addict - that be one of the things when nobody would consider him as fit for work. Another option are IV- guys that have severe war traumas (PTSD) - I know few that didn't hold were after blue-helmet mission

9/10 is just reported returning to the story which he hasn't sold or was nothing to sell to 20-min or alike . Trolling ...
Is vacuuming the latest meme? Are you sure your “nice forest workers” were really upfront with you? Perhaps you don’t yet realize forest work is a bit tougher than downing a beer while/after work and keeping up appearances? As to PTSD – wish you luck – incoming….
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  #350  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:12
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Is vacuuming the latest meme? Are you sure your “nice forest workers” were really upfront with you? Perhaps you don’t yet realize forest work is a bit tougher than downing a beer while/after work and keeping up appearances? As to PTSD – wish you luck – incoming….
My daughter's brother in law is a forest worker, there is no way that they will hire some unqualified joe.

Tom
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  #351  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:17
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Just was walking today around the forest and landed a job when chatting with nice forest workers about cutting trees - they offered me generous 3500CHF for 4-days work-week and a beer every evening
Bullshit. My daughter's BIL is a forest worker, there is no way that they would hire some unqualified person off the street.

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Another option are IV- guys that have severe war traumas (PTSD) - I know few that didn't hold were after blue-helmet mission.
More bullshit, my stepson did two tours in the Balkans, no PTSD.

Tom
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  #352  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:42
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Could you please explain how this works, please?
Every Swiss has to have it's "place of origin " - which is village where person was born .

Now , when person needed "social security" it was not the place you live but willage of "place of origin " responsible to pay for ( not anymore the case for like 6-years I think) .

That lead to a fact that Gemaindes learnt quickly to 'repatriate' these people and give them shelter .

Same time they were responsible for finding job. Should that take subestntial amount of time - Gemaindes conditioned social against "lerning new skills"- aka. go to school . Model of aprentership was used to send folks to work .


And it's very similar today - just that at some point Gemainde shows opening in local "street cleaning company" to candidate . It's still the same "old boys club" if you will to my understanding.

I have never experienced it myself however above is my observation (and these I spoke to) .

Now, when someone is not wiling to do it - there is way to 'convince' them as apparently there is community housing that each Gemainde would pay up for - to move some away to there where cost is lower and Gemainde see no more an issue.

Update : to 2012 was the change.

"Nachdem das Schweizer Parlament Ende 2012 entschied, dass die Heimatorte (Bürgergemeinden) sich nicht mehr länger an Fürsorge-Leistungen für ihre Bürgerinnen und Bürger in Not beteiligen müssen"

Last edited by hoover1; 18.05.2021 at 19:29. Reason: update
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  #353  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:48
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Is vacuuming the latest meme? Are you sure your “nice forest workers” were really upfront with you? Perhaps you don’t yet realize forest work is a bit tougher than downing a beer while/after work and keeping up appearances? As to PTSD – wish you luck – incoming….
I guess you missed the point.

- There is jobs and they advertised that if I be up to that is the pay and they are nice guys so they advertised best about the job!

- it wasn't to know the forest and trees - they cut what they told - at the end it's forest cut for purpose of making heat for houses ( but also care for the forest as it's Gemainde owned).

- I think I could do the job they been doing - but perhaps on a nice sunny day so ask me when it's raining.

- I meet number of guys on IV ( that is people that are subjected to testing and screening and qualified as unfit for work ) after Yugoslavian war - I am not a doctor to would not judge - they are recognised as not fit for work - and often bounced between IV and social.
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  #354  
Old 18.05.2021, 19:08
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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I guess you missed the point.

- There is jobs and they advertised that if I be up to that is the pay and they are nice guys so they advertised best about the job!

- it wasn't to know the forest and trees - they cut what they told - at the end it's forest cut for purpose of making heat for houses ( but also care for the forest as it's Gemainde owned).

- I think I could do the job they been doing - but perhaps on a nice sunny day so ask me when it's raining.

- I meet number of guys on IV ( that is people that are subjected to testing and screening and qualified as unfit for work ) after Yugoslavian war - I am not a doctor to would not judge - they are recognised as not fit for work - and often bounced between IV and social.
The trolling accusations vs the OP might be understandable, and/or open to reflection. Your take on forestry tasks (w/ or w/o beer) are just …. No, I don’t think so.
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  #355  
Old 18.05.2021, 19:29
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Every Swiss has to have it's "place of origin " - which is village where person was born.
Umm, no, most Swiss were not born in their place of origin.

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Now , when person needed "social security" it was not the place you live but willage of "place of origin " responsible to pay for ( not anymore the case for like 6-years I think) .
Indeed, not longer the case.

Tom
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  #356  
Old 18.05.2021, 19:48
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Umm, no, most Swiss were not born in their place of origin.
Yes, you are right . I put that wrong - was "family tree comes from" or something along this lines - "Heimatorte"
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  #357  
Old 18.05.2021, 20:37
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

Nowadays, if one needs assistance from the Sozialamt, the proper procedure it to apply in the municipality in which one lives. It is no longer the responsibility of the original place of the family origin of many generations ago (Heimatort).

OP, who did not have a residence, when he first arrived, went to the local Sozialamt where he was.
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  #358  
Old 18.05.2021, 20:41
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Re: Arrived in CH on a one-way ticket with almost no money intending to stay. discuss

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Nowadays, if one needs assistance from the Sozialamt, the proper procedure it to apply in the municipality in which one lives. It is no longer the responsibility of the original place of the family origin of many generations ago (Heimatort).

OP, who did not have a residence, when he first arrived, went to the local Sozialamt where he was.
so OP is Swiss
OP arrived and went straight for Social
OP english looks pretty good - was he on social in other country prior arriving in CH?

when OP has no address it's still Heimatort (Canton) that be handling his case - as for homeless - so OP's Heimatort is in ZH canton (if I understood correctly he is in ZH - based on his EF profile).

Sozialamt is still very same Community/Canton as former "Heimatort" and play same game.

Community/Canton will want OP to go to IV if they can push him - as it's off their sheet
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  #359  
Old 18.05.2021, 20:41
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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So what have you actually achieved in that 10 years since you came, have you at least:

1) Learned German to some degree of fluency?
2) Made any close friends?
3) Done any regular paid work or explored any other career options using your English skills?
2) Done any charity/volunteer work while not working?
Good questions. Mostly no to all. B1 German. Most of the people I associated with were degens like myself. I've also gone completely dark on any social media, or I guess never got on-board in the first place. I don't exist online. Haven't kept in contact with anyone I knew before coming here due to shame.

For the first six years or so I was focused on rights instead of responsibilities. I'm a recovering leftist, you see. Had a couple or three girlfriends but they all eventually realized I was a loser. I guess I was too busy feeling sorry for myself to even think about volunteering to help others. Also lacking in self confidence, self-efficacy/agency or something. <insert further excuses here>

That said, I do like to think I changed toward the end. There was also no gap in activity while on welfare. It was always something, be it recycling, or gardening, house moving/clearing, screen-printing, whatever (integration programs), which while obviously not impressive, was better than having nothing on my resume, as I do now for the IV years.

I like to think I entered the relationship with IV in good faith, but once I realized it was absurd I should have left and tried to find something on my own, since now I have 4 years that are impossible to explain. I couldn't resist the free money. 45k is a lot to someone who had just spent 6 years on welfare. So I take responsibility for that much. I was sure they'd eventually have to take the integration seriously since the alternative would be a pension that I shouldn't be getting. I erred.

Now I feel like any job search would be futile. "What did you do the last four years?" "Well, you see, IV is a joke...." "thank you. I think that's enough. we'll let you know." Plus I have the stigma of having a recognized disability, that arguably isn't even a disability, or at least not one preventing work, while having gained nothing for it. I also still don't have any credentials. phil and an irrelevant JD. To be honest a part of me also feels like i'm owed the pension, since it should follow deductively from a determination that I can't be integrated. At the same time i'm complaining about the pension, and on the way here today I was skating and fell into this dumpster, and there were some kids filming and now i'm tik tok.... arghgh!

But how are you doing? How's work?
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Old 18.05.2021, 20:45
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Re: Arrived 10 yrs ago with $150; have since cost the taxpayer almost a million franc

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Good questions. Mostly no to all. B1 German. Most of the people I associated with were degens like myself. I've also gone completely dark on any social media, or I guess never got on-board in the first place. I don't exist online. Haven't kept in contact with anyone I knew before coming here due to shame.

For the first six years or so I was focused on rights instead of responsibilities. I'm a recovering leftist, you see. Had a couple or three girlfriends but they all eventually realized I was a loser. I guess I was too busy feeling sorry for myself to even think about volunteering to help others. Also lacking in self confidence, self-efficacy/agency or something. <insert further excuses here>

That said, I do like to think I changed toward the end. There was also no gap in activity while on welfare. It was always something, be it recycling, or gardening, house moving/clearing, screen-printing, whatever (integration programs), which while obviously not impressive, was better than having nothing on my resume, as I do now for the IV years.

I like to think I entered the relationship with IV in good faith, but once I realized it was absurd I should have left and tried to find something on my own, since now I have 4 years that are impossible to explain. I couldn't resist the free money. 45k is a lot to someone who had just spent 6 years on welfare. So I take responsibility for that much. I was sure they'd eventually have to take the integration seriously since the alternative would be a pension that I shouldn't be getting. I erred.

Now I feel like any job search would be futile. "What did you do the last four years?" "Well, you see, IV is a joke...." "thank you. I think that's enough. we'll let you know." Plus I have the stigma of having a recognized disability, that arguably isn't even a disability, or at least not one preventing work, while having gained nothing for it. I also still don't have any credentials. phil and an irrelevant JD. To be honest a part of me also feels like i'm owed the pension, since it should follow deductively from a determination that I can't be integrated. At the same time i'm complaining about the pension, and on the way here today I was skating and fell into this dumpster, and there were some kids filming and now i'm tik tok.... arghgh!

But how are you doing? How's work?
So what are you doing to get out of this state of taking money from the government?
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