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  #161  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:24
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Re: Americanization

Sorry, I was just being sarcastic.
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  #162  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:28
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Re: Americanization

The US are surely large enough to find what ever one is looking for.
Good side: one is always right.
Bad side: contradicting opinions are right too.

I gave up on "knowing" America long ago.

EDIT: Love you Québec cousins!
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  #163  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:28
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Re: Americanization

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Yeah and a hand grenade is way ahead of both...they have the same road holding and drivers enjoyment too. And look at this beaut
....so much for the handling Eco

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  #164  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:30
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Re: Americanization

Oh, everybody is stupid....

Germans...


Brits....



...the whole lot of them.
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  #165  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:31
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Re: Americanization

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....so much for the handling Eco

That car is as representative of the American auto industry as Yao Ming is representative of the average Chinese.
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  #166  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:37
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Re: Americanization

Shouldn't it be "Americanisation"?
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  #167  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:38
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Re: Americanization

One of my favorite George Carlin quotes:

Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider.
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  #168  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:40
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Re: Americanization

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That car is as representative of the American auto industry as Yao Ming is representative of the average Chinese.
..now, you said Corvette and bad handling...and I responded.
Also, why wouldn't American cars be any good if I may ask? Most of the times, you get more options, more comfort and certainly a bigger longer lasting engine for less money than its European counterpart.

Also, in reference to Yao Ming...there are currently 2 Chinese nationals in the NBA and none British...
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  #169  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:49
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Re: Americanization

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..now, you said Corvette and bad handling...and I responded.
Also, why wouldn't American cars be any good if I may ask? Most of the times, you get more options, more comfort and certainly a bigger longer lasting engine for less money than its European counterpart.

Also, in reference to Yao Ming...there are currently 2 Chinese nationals in the NBA and none British...
OK, firstly it's common knowledge that British people are crap at all sports. No surprise there.

American cars handle badly simply because they don't have to handle well - American roads are largely wide, smooth, flat and straight. They also suffer from oligopolistic competition or lack thereof. The latter is slowly changing - the Prius took them by surprise and they'll change more and more as Hummer-eque contraptions go further and further out of style. The other problem is the idea of a "European" comparison. Only a very few countries make cars in any serious way and oftentimes it's the general and corporate culture that's reflected in the quality of the car. Korean, Japanese and German cars are build to last a hundred years and that's not surprising. French and Italian cars are lovely and now have well build chassis' (though you'll have to get used to dash buttons and knobs coming off in your hands). Britain and most of the rest of the world couldn't make a viable car if their lives depended on it so that fact that US cars aren't typically commercially viable outside of their home country irrespective of how cheap they are isn't a slur, it's just almost impossible to compete with the VW Golf.
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  #170  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:53
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Re: Americanization

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I believe that Stuttgart has far more on offer than Mercedes while FIAT is dominating Torino. So if there is a suitable comparison it would be FIAT/Torino and VW/Wolfsburg.


And Torino does? Seriously: Are you sure you are not mixing it up with other Italian places? Stuttgart beats Torino in my eyes any day in all cultural aspects from history to the beauty of its buildings... one of the most underestimated city trips and so easy to get there from Zurich...

I have Stuttgart in quite high regard personally and always liked it. It may not be a top number and München is far more entertaining , but it is a really nice city.

To compare the beautiful Piemontese metropolis with a small town somewhere in VW-land is going miles too far.

I am not mixing up Torino with anything, as it is one of the more splendid cities in Europe, and of course far above average in Italy, a country full with cultural treasures. True, I have a liking for Milano, which may be ugly in some ways but with its vitality and its character is really a great city. To be mentioned as being among the most beautiful cities in Italy are Venezia, Bergamo, Pisa, Firenze and Lucca, plus again Torino. A city in Italy to be noted, even if being in the shadow of Pisa and Lucca is Viareggio, the metropolis of the Riviera della Versilia. Now, any Italian on this board my come up with comparable cities in the Emilia Romagna, with Roma and Palermo etc, and well, right they are !


and here some view of Torino !







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  #171  
Old 15.12.2010, 21:58
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Re: Americanization

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OK, firstly it's common knowledge that British people are crap at all sports. No surprise there.

American cars handle badly simply because they don't have to handle well - American roads are largely wide, smooth, flat and straight. They also suffer from oligopolistic competition or lack thereof. The latter is slowly changing - the Prius took them by surprise and they'll change more and more as Hummer-eque contraptions go further and further out of style. The other problem is the idea of a "European" comparison. Only a very few countries make cars in any serious way and oftentimes it's the general and corporate culture that's reflected in the quality of the car. Korean, Japanese and German cars are build to last a hundred years and that's not surprising. French and Italian cars are lovely and now have well build chassis' (though you'll have to get used to dash buttons and knobs coming off in your hands). Britain and most of the rest of the world couldn't make a viable car if their lives depended on it so that fact that US cars aren't typically commercially viable outside of their home country irrespective of how cheap they are isn't a slur, it's just almost impossible to compete with the VW Golf.
Well, that's incorrect as on average an American car has much more mileage than a European car. Also in terms of handling, check stats on the Nurnburg Ring and you'll see how well both the Corvette ZR1 and the Cadillac did.
In terms of oligopolistic market that's also incorrect, as both Toyota and Honda have been established players in the market and developed Acura and Lexus to cater the North American customer. All car brands except the smalling European cars (Peugeot, Renault Fiat, Alfa Romeo etc.) are well represented making it a very competitive field.

Last edited by lost_inbroad; 15.12.2010 at 22:43.
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  #172  
Old 15.12.2010, 22:00
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Re: Americanization

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It's the same here too Trev....Europeans think Mexico is in South America.
Nobody can stop bad teachers ! I however, having had two geography teachers, can say that neither taught anything thelike.

And, btw., I might regret it if my remarks above had started a kind of "German-Italian culture-war" or a "transatlantic conflict"
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  #173  
Old 15.12.2010, 22:04
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Re: Americanization

Well, one thing is sure, American motorcycles are truly crap in the performance department compared to pretty much anything.

Tom
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  #174  
Old 15.12.2010, 22:14
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Re: Americanization

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But the difference is that Germans love Italy... and have not problem to openly admit it while all Italians I met actually would prefer their country to be "a bit more German", but have a hard time to say it out loud.
You forgot the thing after the BUT. In fact, all Italians I ever met inside and outside Italy clearly and fairly loudly state that they would love their country to be a bit more Swiss or German or Dutch B U T non in the way-of-life and in regard to the "Italianita" !
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  #175  
Old 15.12.2010, 22:32
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Re: Americanization

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How can you expect Americans to differentiate between Sweden and Switzerland when they have the likes of Rick Steves demonstrating??
Both countries have snow, are somewhere in Europe, speak funny-sounding languages (i.e. not English) and are just sooo quaint.......!!
Rick Steves sells guidebooks, it's his yob. I'm sure Sweden and Switzerland are grateful for the tourist dollars.
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  #176  
Old 15.12.2010, 22:34
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Re: Americanization

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I means that I have less bias than you although I am German. But whenever you are losing an argument, you get pretty agressive, so I will leave it at that.

In my views can the tourist attractions in and around Stuttgart easily compete with Torino, so do all cultural institutions from museums to music (while the Egyptian Museum in Torino is an exception).

I will not continue to discuss your ignorant comments, but rather spend the time on giving some good tips for people wanting to explore the area:
http://www.stuttgart-tourist.de/index_ENG.htm

The Mercedes-Benz museum is the most fascinating automotive collection I have ever seen. They display the cars that dominated motorsports before WW2 to an extent that no other brand has ever managed afterwards.
http://www.stuttgart-tourist.de/ENG/...benzmuseum.htm

The "Neue Schloss" can in my eyes easily compete with each Torino palazzo... (and if you like that stuff, you better go to Ludwigsburg, just outside Stuttgart where they have an even nicer "Versailles-like" castle)
http://www.stuttgart-tourist.de/ENG/...uesschloss.htm

If you are into shopping, go to a small town that is so close I would call it suburb of Stuttgart, Metzingen (the home of "Hugo Boss"):
http://www.metzingen.de/ceasy/module...p5?cPageId=567
Sorry, but this simply is NOT the way to go. In fact, Italy, France and Germany happen to be THE countries with the heaviest inbound tourism in the world, and I mean the absolute terms. Much is taste. If I prefer Munich to Stuttgart it is NOT an objective comparison but my quite personal one. If I prefer Köln to Frankfurt, it again is my choice. If I prefer Mulhouse to Basel, the same again.

And again, you asked about the intra-Italia comparison, and there I maintain that Torino is in the top-ten, depending on criteria and taste. But just look at your own country. There is that highly praised Heidelberg, but I would give personal preference to towns like Freiburg-im-Breisgau, Strassburg (oh sorry, in the RoF), Konstanz and Friedrichshafen any time.

And look at the comparison of cities. I in about 2002 visited Leipzig and Halle and much admired the two great cities. If somebody now would tell me that Bordeaux is more beautiful I might react with a questioning "really?", just to put the blunt statement into due perspective. Compare beautiful Amsterdam with far less beautiful Brussels and beautiful Damascus with far far far less beautiful Amman, and then ask me why I felt far much more at ease and more at home in Brussels and Amman ? Simply because I liked these two cities. And this means that cultural beauty is not everything.

Stuttgart in fact is a bit too much like Zurich. Too serious, too down-to-the-earth, too matter-of-fact-minded. While Munich is a bit like the other side of Zurich .....


************************************************** ****

while our discussion of course, at least visible, has moved away from Americanisation !!

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  #177  
Old 16.12.2010, 01:27
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In fact, Italy, France and Germany happen to be THE countries with the heaviest inbound tourism in the world, and I mean the absolute terms.
Really?

The only data I could find at short notice was this, so I look forward to seeing your "definitive" data to substantiate your haveringassertion, when you have a wee moment to post it
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  #178  
Old 16.12.2010, 02:28
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Re: Americanization

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Really?

The only data I could find at short notice was this, so I look forward to seeing your "definitive" data to substantiate your haveringassertion, when you have a wee moment to post it
The statistics I last saw were NOT forged by me ! but possibly by a German agency ! This here
-
1 France Europe 74.2 million
2 United States North America 54.9 million
3 Spain Europe 52.2 million
4 China Asia 50.9 million
5 Italy Europe 43.2 million
6 United Kingdom Europe 28.0 million
7 Turkey Europe 25.5 million
8 Germany Europe 24.2 million



According to THIS (don't know where the statistics I last saw came from !), Germany is not even in the top five but in fact just HALF as important than Italy

But let's twist the figures a bit :

France : 74,2 mio. : 62,3 mio. = 1,19
USA : 54,9 mio. : 304,1 mio. = 0,18
Spain : 45,6mio. : 52,2 mio. = 0,87
China 50,9 mio. : 1331,2 mio. = 0,03
Italy 43,2 mio. : 59,9 mio. = 0,72
UK 28,0 mio. : 61,5 mio. = 0,45
Turkey 25,5 mio. : 74,0 mio. = 0,34
Germany 24,2mio. : 82,2 mio. = 0,29

* the nr of pop taken from Fischer's

and so it is
France 1,19
Spain 0,87
Italy 0,72
UK 0,45
Turkey 0,34
Germany 0,29
USA 0,18
China 0,03
-
which shows on one side to what extent
these countries depend on income tourism or not
and may be how successful these countries are
in regard to inbound tourism

but the statistics you do present here
- do not show countries like Switzerland, Tunisia and Egypt ...............
- do not realize that much of intra-European tourism is "accross the border tourism"
- do not respect that much of intra-European tourism is one-day tourism without overnights

clear however is that the USA and China do not depend on tourism
- while the figure of 0.29 for Germany and 0,72 for Italy speak for themselves
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  #179  
Old 16.12.2010, 02:45
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Re: Americanization

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realities ...................................
Look above. "WeeJem" has now proven that Germany even as a tourist destination is a relative failure ...... so very sorry indeed !
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  #180  
Old 16.12.2010, 02:54
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Re: Americanization

Pfff... don't get me started on things like Valentine's Day and Halloween... in my native Denmark and in Switzerland, the commercialised/americanised take-over of those two dates to promote vacuous consumerism is almost perfect. Perfect in the wrongest sense possible, that is. Sigh.
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