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Old 20.12.2010, 22:28
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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As long as they pay back to the society from which they feed and respect the opportunity afforded them then all is well. I have found it hard to eradicate the negative concept of aufstanden in my children, they are very Swiss in this way, they never blow their own trumpet, if anything they pay down their talents. They and my husband are just learning that they mist show ambition, they must sell themselves to succeed, they can do it-like an act but cringe at the thought of it. In the US the competition is much more overt, in Switzerland the competition plays a closed hand which we learned to do also! Opportunity coupled with sense of confidence can be so inspiring it enables you to achieve what you never thought possible, you learn to set your own expectations and not accept the limitations others put on you.

You speak of it as if it is an elective lifestyle. But for many immigrants to the US, it is a matter of survival. With that at stake, it isn't so much that they wake up every morning trying to convince themselves they should do something. They wake up every morning with the understanding of what they have to do.

That is one difference between those who migrate to the US for a dream, and those who migrate to Switzerland for a fantasy.
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  #262  
Old 20.12.2010, 22:47
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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my son has always sought out older women.
As did I.

When I was 16, I had an 18 year old girlfriend with her own apartment!

Tom
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  #263  
Old 20.12.2010, 22:52
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Which is why Europe still lags far behind the US in productivity.
A) the USA had not integrate formerly Communist countries, as Russia had departed out of North California and Alaska a while ago, even if Mrs Palinskov might like the idea to have worked as state-governor of the Autonomous Republic of Alaskestan
B) the establishment of EEC-EU, EFTA, EEA and the program with the Bilateral Agreements was all launched to overcome the fragmented European market

And of course, what are major companies in Europe would probably be just departments of US companies.
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  #264  
Old 20.12.2010, 22:56
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Right, the Summer of Love '68. Wait a minute, were we even born yet?

Actually, a lot of street gangs formed during those times. It was a way to form a community out of reach of the government.
1968 ? An interesting year, and for an 18 years old a crucial one. And to me, my first flight onboard of an airliner. It was a 1 hour and 30 minutes flight on a Convair CV-990 Coronado.
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Old 20.12.2010, 22:56
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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My husband left his native Czechoslovakia when his parents fled the regime in the late 70s, when he was a little boy. Yes, I know there were groups who were subversive, how else could they and their closest friends have managed to escape - separately?
That was the way to live, which made sense considering the context. You had groups of subversive revolution people then you had those who fled, those who stayed since if they fled their family would be punished and suffer, their relatives wouldn't be let into university of move on at work. They would also be called for many interrogations since cops wanted to know if they helped with the emmigration. That horrible dilema, stay and be with family, help the sub system be stronger, care for your people, or leave and be free...

I am not a big fan of obvious activism for the sake of activism. Sooner or later somebody will abuse this, for his/her personal gain. It's been always this way...

But I miss a culture that allows anyone to be slightly off their rockers, entertaining, funny, have a really crazy hope, talkative, creative...It is not easy to live in the US, fo sho. The insecurity, having to move, the distances, healthcare, ugh. But doesn't it make people adapt and adjust easily, cope with major disasters like losing jobs and having to move, etc etc..? People just shrug their shoulders and move on. While here or back home, it would crush an individual. It would be a disaster.

I gota knit now, xmas is almost here..
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  #266  
Old 20.12.2010, 23:03
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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You speak of it as if it is an elective lifestyle. But for many immigrants to the US, it is a matter of survival. With that at stake, it isn't so much that they wake up every morning trying to convince themselves they should do something. They wake up every morning with the understanding of what they have to do.

That is one difference between those who migrate to the US for a dream, and those who migrate to Switzerland for a fantasy.
There is a big difference in coming from a country which provides some kind of social safety net, like in the UK, you feel that you will always land on your feet, the government won't let you starve. Whereas coming from a country with no safety net, where there is a real danger of starvation, you have a different mentality. People react differently according to personality and experience. Risk-taking is a mixture of background, personality, ability and opportunity.

You can take two immigrants, with the same abilities and backgrounds, put them in the same situation, one may achieve and the other falter. One skill that America values is tenacity, you've got to really want it and be determined to get it.
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Old 20.12.2010, 23:04
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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I suppose, like most things here in CH, it changes from K/Canton to K/C. In NE there are 4 official denomination, Jewish and Christian Catholic, which is akin to Anglicanism as well as Protestant and Catholic.
You might check it up with NE authorities, whether Jews and Christian Catholics when declaring to be so to the municipal office, pay church taxes to the Church/Synagogue in question. In Zurich it is definitely only Protestant/Roman-Catholic, as a vote to change this in favour of Jews and Muslims went down a few years ago. The Muslims took it rather relaxed, but the Jews were, rightly so, severely pissed.
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Old 20.12.2010, 23:16
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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You can take two immigrants, with the same abilities and backgrounds, put them in the same situation, one may achieve and the other falter. One skill that America values is tenacity, you've got to really want it and be determined to get it.
And those are the ones who attain their dreams. Those are the ones who made America what it is, and will continue to do so.
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  #269  
Old 20.12.2010, 23:16
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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You have no clue what the American dream is all about do ya? It's still alive and kicking for everybody...it's about fighting for what you believe, it's about self-actualization, it's about realizing your dreams and achieve whatever you want...something you cannot do in Switzerland because society and its infrastructure is so damn limited. America is also built on extremes...it's the survival of the fittest whilst getting compensated for what you've worked hard for.
Also, if you believe that there are no immigrants here braking their back and at the same time get underpaid...go to any retail storage facility..any construction site...this nation, since the 50s exploited foreign workforce and it has built itself up (literally) on the backs of these poor economical refugees.
If you look into the history of the Swiss economy, you can see quite many immigrants, who DID realize their dreams and achieve whatever they wanted, as an example just look at that Lebanese who recently passed away, Mr Nicolas Hayek . But you might look at Italians like Messrs Boveri and Maggi and Orelli and Muralto, Brits like Mr Brown, Germans like Messrs Sulzer and Nestle and Jacobs, Indians like Mr Ravi Taneeja, just to mention a few. Then you mention the construction industry, and yes, many immigrants in the 1920ies and 30ies, and after 1950, did some very hard work, but please study the membership lists of the Schweizerische Baumeisterverband, and you will find heaps of people who themselves (I mean the founders) immigrated from Italy.
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  #270  
Old 20.12.2010, 23:31
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

Meanwhile, back to OP's reality...

Here we see the formation of a Stasi like state apparatus:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/t.../?hpid=topnews

I just wonder if many will have to die to topple this thing.
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  #271  
Old 20.12.2010, 23:39
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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How much older are you, then your husband
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That's kind of rude to ask that. Just for the record, all my sisters and many friends are older than their partners, my son has always sought out older women.
I agree with Hoppy (for once! )

I'm five years older than him. Do you have a problem with that?
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Old 20.12.2010, 23:40
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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And those are the ones who attain their dreams. Those are the ones who made America what it is, and will continue to do so.
.. and in Switzerland too. Some of the poorer immigrants from the 50s and 60s have built fantastic careers and businesses. Parmigiani being a brilliant local example - no poor teacher/s would hold him back.
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  #273  
Old 21.12.2010, 00:57
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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I agree with HoppySorry (for once! )

I'm five years older than him. Do you have a problem with that?
OK OK you right,SorryI just was curious,60s lait 70sand no I have no problems,but sometimes I am To much information
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Old 21.12.2010, 01:04
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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OK OK you right,SorryI just was curious,60s lait 70sand no I have no problems,but sometimes I am To much information
He was a boy in the late 70s, not a baby. But even if he was, I don't see the problem.
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  #275  
Old 21.12.2010, 04:58
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

...found this to be an interesting sizing up of State of the Disunion:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/...ex.html?hpt=C2
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  #276  
Old 21.12.2010, 08:38
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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You have no clue what the American dream is all about do ya? It's still alive and kicking for everybody...it's about fighting for what you believe, it's about self-actualization, it's about realizing your dreams and achieve whatever you want...something you cannot do in Switzerland because society and its infrastructure is so damn limited.
Would you please give an example? What exactly can you do in the US that is not possible in Switzerland because the society is so "limited"?
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Old 21.12.2010, 10:10
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

In general:

if you want to be an employee, go to Switzerland.
if you want to be an employer, go to the United States.
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  #278  
Old 21.12.2010, 10:19
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Would you please give an example? What exactly can you do in the US that is not possible in Switzerland because the society is so "limited"?
Hmmm...I don't have that much time

I think the biggest thing is, if you decide to do something here and make it at least semi official, you always need a big chunk of cash, for any single administrative move, and there are a lot. It didn't seem that way back there. I remember people having all sorts of dreams, careers and study programs, while here it is an army of sameness, so the dreams, careers and study programs do resemble. Identical. No matter what language people happen to speak in that region. The little cantonal differences are just cosmetic. I find that limiting, so people do not even think they should have a dream, aspiration, etc.

Not that many of my colleagues actually have a hobby. Aside of keeping fit. I think it's a shame since deep down they want to or they don't share info about this, worried about sounding inappropriate or crazy.

When I think about our friends, they are actually very non standard here, I don't think they easily bond with the rest of the hybernating population here either, or happen to have a lot of courage to be different. I don't think you need so much courage to be different in the US, isn't it almost expected? But my friends there are quirky, too, I guess, with their bands, projects, poetry farms, crazy careers protecting wild life, fighting human rights and principles on side of their normal daily jobs, going back to uni to get another career, etc.

Maybe the limits are only in prejudices and financial constraints, but this is what I observed...When one does get under the superficial armour here and the hair is let down, one does find gems, dreams, wishes and hopes, crazy activities, that's true. I just wish it was more generally supported. I think people need to keep feeding their inner kid more, no matter how corny it sounds. Or they will let the percieved expectations of society here limit them too much and too easily.
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  #279  
Old 21.12.2010, 11:09
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Would you please give an example? What exactly can you do in the US that is not possible in Switzerland because the society is so "limited"?
Be a pro basketball player, be an actor, be a naked cowboy on Time Square, wear a chicken suit and pay your rent*, be a window cleaner and drive a Cadillac*, open up a rib shak that sells nothing but ribs and manage to own a house and feed your family *, start your studies as an international student from Nepal and 6 years later own 2 gas stations*, start you studies as an international student from India and get your MS degree paid for by the government and work for the pentagon*, be an illegal immigrant from Mexico supports his wife, 2 kids and owns a Mustang*,...you want me keep going? The ones with the star are all actual people that I know and are living their version of the American dream. Neither one of them could do the same in Switzerland.
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Old 21.12.2010, 11:17
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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wear a chicken suit and pay your rent
Of course you can't do this here as there is NO KFC IN SWITZERLAND
What you can do though is dress up as one of the three kings around christmas and as a bunny at easter to pay your rent...
Things are changing even in Switzerland.
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