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  #61  
Old 17.12.2010, 21:44
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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If you are worried about taxes, try Pennsylvania.
I think he writes from Pennsylvania.

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From what I can tell, Swiss tax money is well spent.
That is what I reckon.
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Old 17.12.2010, 21:52
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

There are only 2 Places , that i would prefer against Zurich:
Melbourne(Australia) or Vancouver (Canada)

The economical situation in the us (one of 7 lives in poverty, earns less then
20000 us-$ a year) is very bad, makes it very hard to have a decent life.
Both countries (australia and canada ) have very high taxes compared to switzerland, the wages are lower, but the nature is better, the people have more fun......
Money can't buy happiness.....
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Old 17.12.2010, 22:10
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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I think he writes from Pennsylvania.
New Jersey, actually. Northern New Jersey. It takes me 10-15 minutes to cross in to either Pennsylvania or New York.

I take less issue with my state government, or either of the other two states, than I do with my federal government. That is what I wish to get away from.

Thank all of you so much for the helpful comments. This is just another reason why I feel the move away from America is a good idea. If I had brought this up in any American forum or website, I would swiftly be dismissed as unpatriotic or some such silliness by the mindless drone masses. It is sort of alien for me to have a calm, rational discussion with people without it having to turn in to a personal insult contest. That's just how we roll here in Amurca!
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  #64  
Old 17.12.2010, 22:18
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

There are many members on here from your side of the pond. Equally so, there are many threads with sound contributions, which you can view by clicking on the search button and entering say for example "American".

This forum may be a little challenging to navigate, and if you have specific questions, pose them in the appropriate subforum(s), or under Forum Support.

All the best in making that decision.
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Old 17.12.2010, 22:41
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

M Rader

Please continue to do your research. I am fortunate in that my employer has provided significant support to help in the transition. I can't imagine how challenging it would be for someone to do it without job, family, language, connections, etc. Don't get me wrong - lots of of people on this Forum have done it. I am just afraid you would trade one set of frustrations for another.

I agree with many of your observations about the state of America, but for me, personally, I am looking forward to going "home" for the holidays.

Good luck.
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Old 17.12.2010, 22:49
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Oh the joys of unbridled capitalism........
Actually, the US crisis was caused by a lack of free market capitalism and the interference of government in the markets.
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  #67  
Old 17.12.2010, 23:10
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

Have you ever lived overseas? Anywhere else? I find that Americans (and I am one) tend to think that everywhere else is pretty much like the U.S. except that people speak another language, which they will quickly learn. Americans of a certain type also tend to believe that some parts of Europe are just like America, but better (cleaner, wealthier, simpler, whatever). There's a yearning for that old-fashioned, slower way of life that we think must exist somewhere, and Europe looks old-fashioned, so it must be the place.

However, if you hate the U.S. based purely on political/theoretical grounds, I would really wonder if you will like it anywhere else better. I have seen many Americans with strong opinions decide that Europe really isn't the place for them (because they tend to form strong opinions about their "new" country as well). Specifically, moving to a place with more rules and regulations (e.g. we just got a $40 traffic ticket for going one mile over the speed limit in CH --and there are traffic cameras everywhere), very high prices, and very reserved people might not be easy for you. Australia or NZ? I have no idea as I've never been there, but Europe requires a certain ability to switch gears and drastically change your expectations. I would not move there based on frustration with the U.S. because some of the same things you dislike, you will find in Europe. There are also some stupid people there, and some of their stupidity and anger over their life situation will be directed at YOU, as an American, whether you like it or not. Believe it or not, you will suddenly feel like defending some things that you happily left behind, just because YOU are the target.

For starters, why not look at Homegate.ch (I think there's an English option) and search for housing in an area you'd like to live. Anything affordable? Then try Comparis.ch and look at all of the insurance you are required to buy. Why do you think that Swiss schools are better than U.S.? I have Swiss friends who were very impressed by the U.S. schools (in a decent district) and opted to put their children into an international school upon returning to Switzerland. It would be FAR cheaper for you to move to a better school district in NJ than to move to Switzerland. And read the threads here about schools to see if you can handle the differences. How will you or your wife work here without German, French or Italian? You'd better pick one and start learning it. Yes, there are many jobs where you can speak English, but I don't think electrician is one of them.

Sometimes it's good to look from the outside in. My husband is German and thinks the American dream is alive and well. When people (including me at times) were comparing Bush to Hitler, he would just laugh and say that they (i.e. "I") had no idea. When they compare our current economic crisis to Weimar, he again laughs and suggests a little extra curricular reading about reparations. I'm not saying that things couldn't be better -- the divide between rich and poor is truly concerning -- but I agree with the poster that turning off the TV is a great idea. Read the news online instead and you will get a more balanced view. I don't have friends who watch FoxNews, so maybe you would feel better by expanding your circle of friends. Subscribe to Inc magazine -- that always opens my eyes to the developments happening in many parts of the country. A huge majority of Americans isn't stupid. That's just silly. Hang out with some well-educated people and you might feel better.

I am not very patriotic or pro-America. I know we do a lot of crap in the world on a grand scale, but I also know that it can be a pretty good place to live. I like to see all sides to things, and I wonder if you are yearning for something you won't find. I'm actually looking forward to moving to Switzerland for a while, but I lived in Germany for a number of years and we have family there. We've also been planning it for two years. It's not something I would jump into. If you are that frustrated, try Canada. Vancouver is awesome. If you don't like Canada, I don't see how Switzerland will solve your problems and may well compound them due to the extreme cost of living.

Sorry to be so blunt and I don't mean to offend any Europeans on here. I love Europe and can't wait to live there again, but as I've gotten older, I've realized that your problems with a place are often a problem with yourself. For the love of Pete, we aren't living in North Korea. If you are going to move to a different country, don't do it because of theoretical/philosophical/political frustrations with the place you are living because you will find theoretical/philosophical frustrations in the new place, too. They just won't be the ones you expected.

Seriously, look at your current place in the U.S. and see if you can improve on it. Turn off the tube and read. Find a new school. If that doesn't do it for you, try Canada or spend at least month in ONE place in Europe (not sightseeing -- that doesn't count). I've just heard these arguments before and, honestly, people like you usually aren't happy within the constraints of Europe, either.
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Old 17.12.2010, 23:23
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Specifically, moving to a place with more rules and regulations (e.g. we just got a $40 traffic ticket for going one mile over the speed limit in CH --and there are traffic cameras everywhere), very high prices, and very reserved people might not be easy for you.
I'm from New England, so high prices and very reserved people is what I'm used to.

And speeding tickets, I've gotten more in any given year in the US than in the 24 years I've lived here, combined.

Tom
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Old 17.12.2010, 23:24
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Have you ever lived overseas? Anywhere else? I find that Americans (and I am one) tend to think that everywhere else is pretty much like the U.S. except that people speak another language, which they will quickly learn. Americans of a certain type also tend to believe that some parts of Europe are just like America, but better (cleaner, wealthier, simpler, whatever). There's a yearning for that old-fashioned, slower way of life that we think must exist somewhere, and Europe looks old-fashioned, so it must be the place.

However, if you hate the U.S. based purely on political/theoretical grounds, I would really wonder if you will like it anywhere else better. I have seen many Americans with strong opinions decide that Europe really isn't the place for them (because they tend to form strong opinions about their "new" country as well). Specifically, moving to a place with more rules and regulations (e.g. we just got a $40 traffic ticket for going one mile over the speed limit in CH --and there are traffic cameras everywhere), very high prices, and very reserved people might not be easy for you. Australia or NZ? I have no idea as I've never been there, but Europe requires a certain ability to switch gears and drastically change your expectations. I would not move there based on frustration with the U.S. because some of the same things you dislike, you will find in Europe. There are also some stupid people there, and some of their stupidity and anger over their life situation will be directed at YOU, as an American, whether you like it or not. Believe it or not, you will suddenly feel like defending some things that you happily left behind, just because YOU are the target.

For starters, why not look at Homegate.ch (I think there's an English option) and search for housing in an area you'd like to live. Anything affordable? Then try Comparis.ch and look at all of the insurance you are required to buy. Why do you think that Swiss schools are better than U.S.? I have Swiss friends who were very impressed by the U.S. schools (in a decent district) and opted to put their children into an international school upon returning to Switzerland. It would be FAR cheaper for you to move to a better school district in NJ than to move to Switzerland. And read the threads here about schools to see if you can handle the differences. How will you or your wife work here without German, French or Italian? You'd better pick one and start learning it. Yes, there are many jobs where you can speak English, but I don't think electrician is one of them.

Sometimes it's good to look from the outside in. My husband is German and thinks the American dream is alive and well. When people (including me at times) were comparing Bush to Hitler, he would just laugh and say that they (i.e. "I") had no idea. When they compare our current economic crisis to Weimar, he again laughs and suggests a little extra curricular reading about reparations. I'm not saying that things couldn't be better -- the divide between rich and poor is truly concerning -- but I agree with the poster that turning off the TV is a great idea. Read the news online instead and you will get a more balanced view. I don't have friends who watch FoxNews, so maybe you would feel better by expanding your circle of friends. Subscribe to Inc magazine -- that always opens my eyes to the developments happening in many parts of the country. A huge majority of Americans isn't stupid. That's just silly. Hang out with some well-educated people and you might feel better.

I am not very patriotic or pro-America. I know we do a lot of crap in the world on a grand scale, but I also know that it can be a pretty good place to live. I like to see all sides to things, and I wonder if you are yearning for something you won't find. I'm actually looking forward to moving to Switzerland for a while, but I lived in Germany for a number of years and we have family there. We've also been planning it for two years. It's not something I would jump into. If you are that frustrated, try Canada. Vancouver is awesome. If you don't like Canada, I don't see how Switzerland will solve your problems and may well compound them due to the extreme cost of living.

Sorry to be so blunt and I don't mean to offend any Europeans on here. I love Europe and can't wait to live there again, but as I've gotten older, I've realized that your problems with a place are often a problem with yourself. For the love of Pete, we aren't living in North Korea. If you are going to move to a different country, don't do it because of theoretical/philosophical/political frustrations with the place you are living because you will find theoretical/philosophical frustrations in the new place, too. They just won't be the ones you expected.

Seriously, look at your current place in the U.S. and see if you can improve on it. Turn off the tube and read. Find a new school. If that doesn't do it for you, try Canada or spend at least month in ONE place in Europe (not sightseeing -- that doesn't count). I've just heard these arguments before and, honestly, people like you usually aren't happy within the constraints of Europe, either.
Well...it depends. Sometimes a person "has changed" and therefore want new surroundings to complement that change. Instead of trying to "change their surroundings" which rarely work. The change must take place "within". The OP also stated that "they were tired of trying to change" the circumstance as far as the political stance where he is and the country. Therefore I think a change is warranted if only out of curiosity...
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Old 17.12.2010, 23:29
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

I agree. I have been given a lot of food for thought here today. At this point, I am simply doing research. I have not made any decisions, nor do I plan to any time in the very near future. We all have to start somewhere, and I think I picked a very good starting point.
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Old 17.12.2010, 23:36
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

Switzerland is the best country on earth, if you like
  • cold, rain, snow, winter, mountains, lakes, outdoor action, hiking
  • strict and regulated but very effective political system and society
  • rural people on the countryside and small international cities with different cultures in respect of the language area
  • either French, Italian or Swiss(!) German
  • to life in a competitive country with best economic grades http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5294528.shtml
Keep in mind that the Swiss are no different than anyone, they just profit from a very positive startegic political and economic position that Switzerland has achieved and conserved after World War 2.
I would consider Zürich or Lausanne/Geneva area with lots of English folks.
Finally its all a question of "living" in a foreign language, il you really like it, you should start learning immediatly - Swiss German is very tough!
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Old 17.12.2010, 23:49
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Finally its all a question of "living" in a foreign language, il you really like it, you should start learning immediatly - Swiss German is very tough!
This will most likely be the hardest part if I were to move there. I never thought myself even capable of learning another language. It's amazing what can come of necessity, though.
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Old 18.12.2010, 00:03
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

If you do decide to move, possibly consider researching employment options where the position is one where an employer would make a concerted effort to facilitate your permit and move. Yes, I'm talking about career change, further education, major commitment. Also, see what regions of Switzerland hold the highest possibility of finding a position, and start taking courses in that region's language ASAP. Sounds like a lot of work and time to get to where you want to go, but it would still likely be less effort than trying to just come over. It's really, really hard to get a permit as a U.S. citizen without the aid of an established company championing your cause. Even then it's hard. If the above seems like too much to ask then you are probably headed down the wrong road already. Don't mean to sound harsh or judgmental- really.
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Old 18.12.2010, 00:40
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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If you do decide to move, possibly consider researching employment options where the position is one where an employer would make a concerted effort to facilitate your permit and move. Yes, I'm talking about career change, further education, major commitment. Also, see what regions of Switzerland hold the highest possibility of finding a position, and start taking courses in that region's language ASAP. Sounds like a lot of work and time to get to where you want to go, but it would still likely be less effort than trying to just come over. It's really, really hard to get a permit as a U.S. citizen without the aid of an established company championing your cause. Even then it's hard. If the above seems like too much to ask then you are probably headed down the wrong road already. Don't mean to sound harsh or judgmental- really.
"Just coming over" is just not an option. They will not get permits like that.
But I agree there is lots of work & research to do first.
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Old 18.12.2010, 00:45
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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I agree. I have been given a lot of food for thought here today. At this point, I am simply doing research. I have not made any decisions, nor do I plan to any time in the very near future. We all have to start somewhere, and I think I picked a very good starting point.
I have been living in Zurich for 5 months and hit a wall a few days ago. Just a few decent lashings of grumpiness, wanting to be doing anything else but be here. Probably because its Christmas and I'm wanting more familiar comforts.

In the last two and a bit years I've let AUD & CH currencies decide where I work and so live because of a large investment I made in the UK 3 months pre GFC. I hatched the original plan with the pure purpose to "get ahead" only to watch it crumble then returned to see the effects of a mining boom in my home town in Western Australia.

Its the monotony of sticking to a plan that I find boring, the domesticity of the whole thing and too much time to think (because I'm cerainly not out partying anymore!). Moving countries has been worth it financially but personally taxing. If I become a more grateful person that will be great but in future when making the big decisions I will consider personal happiness before the economy. Sometimes it needs extra thought right at the beginning to tell the difference.
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Old 18.12.2010, 01:05
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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This will most likely be the hardest part if I were to move there. I never thought myself even capable of learning another language. It's amazing what can come of necessity, though.
No, the hardest part will be getting a visa.

As others have mentioned, it is difficult for a non-EU citizen to get a work/residency permit. Concentrate on this first.
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Old 18.12.2010, 01:24
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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This will most likely be the hardest part if I were to move there. I never thought myself even capable of learning another language. It's amazing what can come of necessity, though.
... not true in all cases. From IT to Hospitality, there are plenty of jobs in which you'll do fine with American (after 2 years here, I speak just enough German to get my Marlboro Reds and trash bags at Coop!).
Don't be wrekcless (since you have a Family), but - in the same time - don't let the naysayers bring you down! If you and your loved ones really want it, YOU will get it! It is not an unachievable goal...
US of A was good to me... I was good to her, too, but, that's another story. Come, see, experience, acquaint, and conquer!
Suisse is not "the promised land", but it's one of the best places to have a Family life. I still long for America, and have a feeling that will be back once my contract is over...
Meanwhile, here's something that your fellow countrymen should remember:
‎"--Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--" ... you know where that's from... or you'll Google it!
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Old 18.12.2010, 04:01
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Many many many things. The straw that broke the camels back though is the current right wing childish foot stomping they call politics. When people who ran on deficit reduction and patriotism start denying 9/11 first responders the health care they need to combat the injuries they sustained being heroes because their hugely deficit increasing tax cuts have not been extended yet, I find myself needing to step away from the table.

America has lost it's common sense and gained corporate greed in it's place. I am ashamed to be a part of such a country. I look forward to the final raping of my rights which will be to be either photographed essentially naked and exposed to unstudied radiation or groped by a stranger when I leave this place. I could go on and on with my frustration, but I feel it unnecessary to the thread.

I just want to know if I am suffering from "the grass is always greener on the other side" while I entertain the thought of rearranging my life to Switzerland.
Hopefully the 911 first responders will not be pushed back by the Republicans for too long:
Quote:
Stewart spent the half hour railing against the US Senate, more specifically the Republican party, for filibustering the Zadroga Bill; which would dedicate seven billion dollars of much needed health care assistance to 9/11 first responders.
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/4138...st-responders/
Meanwhile at least something has been achieved:

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Abουt 75% οf thе 10,000 hаνе filed thеіr claims, leaving 2,000 remaining tο file іn order fοr thе settlement tο bе paid out.
http://www.allmesotheliomainformatio...pproaches.html

I suppose that everyone's experiences are different, a lot depends on the people surrounding you and how bigoted their views are.
In the US i feklt from the get-go that I belonged even before I had gained citizenship. In Switzerland I felt that I never belonged despite being born with citizenship.

I love living in the USA, but I don't live in New Jersey. I am surrounded by intellectual caring people from a range of backgrounds. The US is the only country where I have not been affected by racism, but who knows- I return periodically to Switzerland, we have some great friends there. We are expected to return but for now I choose to stay here. Never say never!

You didn't say how your wife feels about the move?

There will be many barriers in Switzerland, unless you have contacts, you will probably find it hard to get the Swiss electrician apprenticeship and belong to a guild. as far as I know all electrical work must by law be carried out by a certified electrician. your wife may not be entitled to work in her field. You son may require extra private tuition if he is to hope to get into Sekundar or Kantonalschule. You will need to become proficient and pay to pass the nationality exam. Swiss nationality may be a distant dream. With the school timetable the way it is and the cost of childcare, one of you will probably have to stay at home. There are many stay-at-home dads but generally women do not receive equal pay to men.
Houses are expensive, unaffordable to many, but most Swiss rent. If you own property in New Jersey you may not be able to sell fro the price you want.

However, if your child is accepted and treated as an equal to Swiss children, you get hired with opportunities for training and guild membership and your wife gets work in her field, then village life can be idyllic.
My daughter still yearns for her Swiss childhood spent in ignorant bliss, loved and cared for by the village, free to run where she liked, to walk to school, to join in festivities and just feel part of village life. She tried to return to recapture it, but it eluded her. Even my son at times will wonder at times if he would have been happier to stay. But each have had the opportunity to return and don't, perhaps in the future they will. The Swiss countryside gets into your blood along with the air and taste of natural wholesome, basic food.

The opposite maybe being stuck in an innercity small apartment,fining it dfficult to get promotion because as a non- Swiss you don't know the ropes, paying through the nose for food and rent, being treated as an auslaender and your son getting stuck in a ghetto school.

Before visiting, contact the Swiss embassy, they are usually very helpful, they could give you advice on qualifications etc.
Good Luck!
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Old 18.12.2010, 04:15
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

Hope you speak German and then have fun learning Swiss German. I've been here 4 months and I'm still struggling, but it is beautiful and expensive too. Have you looked at just how much cars cost here? and you'll double your grocery shopping bill as well.
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Old 18.12.2010, 05:54
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heatherdodd84 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

I have recently been feeling the same way (I live in the US right now) and grew up here. I am so sick of everything about my country--I can't trust politicians, schools have gone way downhill and it seems that people are getting more greedy and turning into very trashy people with no morals.

We are moving to Switzerland for a year or 2 for my husband's job and I am thinking maybe we just might try to stay if we like it a lot more there.
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