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  #81  
Old 18.12.2010, 05:23
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Well...it depends. Sometimes a person "has changed" and therefore want new surroundings to complement that change. Instead of trying to "change their surroundings" which rarely work. The change must take place "within". The OP also stated that "they were tired of trying to change" the circumstance as far as the political stance where he is and the country. Therefore I think a change is warranted if only out of curiosity...
That's why I suggested Canada ... or a different (more liberal?) state. Australia or NZ might really be options. Switzerland is not the first place I would think of for a disgruntled American, and I think it's completely foolhardy to contemplate WITH A FAMILY without having ever having been there. Take German 101, visit the country, read about the schools, read up on the rules, check out the housing situation, see if you can afford one car (let alone two), take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
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  #82  
Old 18.12.2010, 07:03
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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I have recently been feeling the same way (I live in the US right now) and grew up here. I am so sick of everything about my country--I can't trust politicians, schools have gone way downhill and it seems that people are getting more greedy and turning into very trashy people with no morals.

We are moving to Switzerland for a year or 2 for my husband's job and I am thinking maybe we just might try to stay if we like it a lot more there.
People are getting greedier everywhere. Switzerland although small has the greatest gap between rich and poor. There are poor Swiss, but even more poor foreigners, who don't always show in the statistics as they may be considered non-resident. I presume that Switzerland may have one of the most embedded press they tow the patriotic line. very clean everything gets swept away. An old book but still worth a mention: The Swiss wash whiter here a messy translation of an interview with Jean Ziegler but you may get the gist of it:

http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3Divns[

I hope that the OP isn't a troll who just wants EF'ers to air Swiss dirty laundry in public.

Last edited by Slaphead; 18.12.2010 at 08:05. Reason: Fixed quote syntax
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  #83  
Old 18.12.2010, 08:54
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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That's why I suggested Canada ... or a different (more liberal?) state. Australia or NZ might really be options. Switzerland is not the first place I would think of for a disgruntled American, and I think it's completely foolhardy to contemplate WITH A FAMILY without having ever having been there. Take German 101, visit the country, read about the schools, read up on the rules, check out the housing situation, see if you can afford one car (let alone two), take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
Well maybe for you Switzerland may not be the first place...but the OP asked about Switzerland and he has every right to. He doesn't seem "reckless" which is the reason he inquired about it in the first place...
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  #84  
Old 18.12.2010, 09:58
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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People are getting greedier everywhere. Switzerland although small has the greatest gap between rich and poor. There are poor Swiss, but even more poor foreigners, who don't always show in the statistics as they may be considered non-resident. I presume that Switzerland may have one of the most embedded press they tow the patriotic line. very clean everything gets swept away. .
- "gap between rich and poor" ? I dare say that this is similar in Northern Italy, Austria, Germany, France and the Benelux
- "embedded press" ? Embedded in what ?
- "tow the patriotic line" ? in what way ? who ? I mean, I cannot see much of a "patriotic line" in Tages Anzeiger, or NZZ, or Le Temps, etc. The only paper with such a "patriotic line" is the once-weekly Weltwoche
- "considered non-resident" ? I mean the law is quite clear about who is resident and who is not. And in case you refer to either illegal immigrants and asylum seekers, their actual number is rather small and statistically irrelevant, in spite of all the ado done about it by the determined rightwingers

Something I however always tell people from spacious countries is how narrow geographically and in a way also mentally Central Europe in general and Switzerland in particular is. Add to this that the Napoleonic Law System generally in force in Continental Europe means a few thousands more laws and regulations than in countries with Imperial Law in force.
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  #85  
Old 18.12.2010, 10:50
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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People are getting greedier everywhere. Switzerland although small has the greatest gap between rich and poor. There are poor Swiss, but even more poor foreigners, who don't always show in the statistics as they may be considered non-resident. I presume that Switzerland may have one of the most embedded press they tow the patriotic line. very clean everything gets swept away. An old book but still worth a mention: The Swiss wash whiter here a messy translation of an interview with Jean Ziegler but you may get the gist of it:

I hope that the OP isn't a troll who just wants EF'ers to air Swiss dirty laundry in public.

what a total nonsense
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Old 18.12.2010, 11:04
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

oooh, usual vast topic showing up randomly in time for New Year's resolutions.

I think Joy's long post is a reasonable reply, and many of the others also have excellent points.

Switzerland - and to Wollishofer point, most of 1st world Europe - is a wonderful country. Lots of money flies around; luxury stores everywhere, cost of living high. A decent lifestyle is VERY expensive; kids in school compete on branded clothes. There are also poor swiss - and poor foreigners.

On the other hand, opportunities do not fly around; I believe most people are in here for stability, for a standard of living, and not for "a creative approach to their future". To put it in other words, this is a wonderful country to grow up in as a kid (because it is extremely safe, and a kid can enjoy a wonderful level of freedom), or to grow old (safe, excellent health care, security). As an ambitious adult, one has to leave, or risk to live all his/er life as a limbo.

http://www.expatinterviews.com/switzerland for some expat experiences.

And finally a little piece of advice: if you really want to leave, your NY resolution should be to learn well French and/or German BEFORE you make plans for leaving. It will make your move easier, faster, less stressful, and will help you immensely in finding a job.
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Old 18.12.2010, 11:09
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

Just left California for Switzerland - but it's all about the job for me. I didn't really want to leave the US but no-one was offering this kind of opportunity to me there. It's easy to get sucked into 'the US is going to hell' stuff but at least you get to flush the toilet when you want to (which you don't in Switzerland). I have moved around a lot - Europe and US - and it is easy to pin your hopes on a place and then be disappointed. If you've not lived in Europe, you won't understand how free the US is - by comparison Europe can be very oppressive. But that's a personal comment. And I agree, leaving friends and family can seem attractive but it is hard and it takes a great deal of effort to set up a new life anywhere.
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Old 18.12.2010, 11:38
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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It's easy to get sucked into 'the US is going to hell' stuff but at least you get to flush the toilet when you want to (which you don't in Switzerland .
In all honesty, how many people can't flush the toilet when they want to here in Switzerland.

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If you've not lived in Europe, you won't understand how free the US is - by comparison Europe can be very oppressive.
It's oppressive if you expect Europe to be exactly as the United States. Otherwise, unless examples are given, it's hard to understand what the OP means by oppression.
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Old 18.12.2010, 12:14
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Just left California for Switzerland - but it's all about the job for me. I didn't really want to leave the US but no-one was offering this kind of opportunity to me there. It's easy to get sucked into 'the US is going to hell' stuff but at least you get to flush the toilet when you want to (which you don't in Switzerland). I have moved around a lot - Europe and US - and it is easy to pin your hopes on a place and then be disappointed. If you've not lived in Europe, you won't understand how free the US is - by comparison Europe can be very oppressive. But that's a personal comment. And I agree, leaving friends and family can seem attractive but it is hard and it takes a great deal of effort to set up a new life anywhere.
I don't know, I could flush the toilet any time I wanted in Switzerland. Showers or late night tv were another matter, but easily worked around.

However, I would not at all consider Europe to feel oppressive. In many, many ways I feel more free in Europe than I ever did in the States, and I certainly have no plans to return to the US by choice.
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Old 18.12.2010, 14:14
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Keep in mind that the Swiss are no different than anyone, they just profit from a very positive startegic political and economic position that Switzerland has achieved and conserved after World War 2.

Switzerland was the wealthiest country in continental Europe even before WWI

See Table 8c (Per Capita GDP 1913)

http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/other_books/HS-8_2003.pdf
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Old 18.12.2010, 14:54
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I did a quick read-through of this forum and noticed that many asked what M's wife thought of all this...

I'm not quite as ready to give up on America as he is. I wonder if it has always been like this, and we are just now reaching the age that we notice. However, I do share his disgust over many issues, including corporations running everything. Our FDA (a government organization that is supposed to protect consumers from harmful drugs and substances in our foods, for those not familiar with the organization), I feel, may as well work for the farmers' union and pharmaceutical companies. Not only does one have to research carefully to find what foods are actually safe and what drugs true side effects are, but those who try to spread the truth are acted against. For instance, biochemical companies are buying up all the non-genetically-modified seeds and trying to get legislation in place that would make non-modified seeds illegal, for our safety. That seems an all too transparent attempt to completely control the agriculture market to me, but most American's are unaware because they are distracted by over-inflated arguments about gay marriage and immigration. These are of course important issues, but I get the feeling they are really there to make us look one way, while they sneak things in on us on the other side.

Sorry, I went on longer than I expected. I did visit Switzerland for a very short time (about one day) when I was 16, and found it beautiful. I speak some French and have an ear for it, but am not as confident that I could pick up German easily. Also, I am resistant to move further from our families. And finally, I don't want to move somewhere that is just as badly run by a small portion of powerful serving their own needs, since that is essentially what I am trying to escape.

Also, I am beginning to appreciate the Swiss policy of neutrality. As a child, I thought, "How can they stand by and do nothing when people in other country's are treated so badly" but now I see the value in it. If America would worry about itself more and let other peoples do the same, we may not have so many issues with our world neighbors.
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Old 18.12.2010, 15:12
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Re: M Rader's wife

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I did a quick read-through of this forum and noticed that many asked what M's wife thought of all this...

I'm not quite as ready to give up on America as he is. I wonder if it has always been like this, and we are just now reaching the age that we notice. However, I do share his disgust over many issues, including corporations running everything. Our FDA (a government organization that is supposed to protect consumers from harmful drugs and substances in our foods, for those not familiar with the organization), I feel, may as well work for the farmers' union and pharmaceutical companies. Not only does one have to research carefully to find what foods are actually safe and what drugs true side effects are, but those who try to spread the truth are acted against. For instance, biochemical companies are buying up all the non-genetically-modified seeds and trying to get legislation in place that would make non-modified seeds illegal, for our safety. That seems an all too transparent attempt to completely control the agriculture market to me, but most American's are unaware because they are distracted by over-inflated arguments about gay marriage and immigration. These are of course important issues, but I get the feeling they are really there to make us look one way, while they sneak things in on us on the other side.

Sorry, I went on longer than I expected. I did visit Switzerland for a very short time (about one day) when I was 16, and found it beautiful. I speak some French and have an ear for it, but am not as confident that I could pick up German easily. Also, I am resistant to move further from our families. And finally, I don't want to move somewhere that is just as badly run by a small portion of powerful serving their own needs, since that is essentially what I am trying to escape.

Also, I am beginning to appreciate the Swiss policy of neutrality. As a child, I thought, "How can they stand by and do nothing when people in other country's are treated so badly" but now I see the value in it. If America would worry about itself more and let other peoples do the same, we may not have so many issues with our world neighbors.
You guys will definitely be safe from the evil pharma, bio-chemical, and agro companies here in Switzerland.
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Old 18.12.2010, 15:17
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

Welcome to the forum Mrs. M!
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Old 18.12.2010, 15:27
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

Dear OP, now seemingly, you don't know much about Switzerland and you look at the country through pink shades. If indeed you chose to come here, and after the initial honey moon phase you started to settle down and notice the difference..as in, there are no YMCAs where you can simply pop in for some pickup games, having to cope with stringent store hours, spending an unbelievable amount of time looking for an apartment, greyish weather, greyish people, no real life other than mountainous outdoor fun, etc. I'm certain, that you'll gladly head back to the US. Now, I'm just some person online and all and you can chose to make up your own idea about Switzerland....but if you're interested, why don't you come over for a visit..maybe a week or so and get a feel for the country and culture.
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Old 18.12.2010, 15:28
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

And there are no Kentucky Fried Chicken outlets in CH ....
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Old 18.12.2010, 15:31
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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And there are no Kentucky Fried Chicken outlets in CH ....
Yes, thank you!
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Old 18.12.2010, 16:08
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Even while reaping no benefit from that tax money. Not surprising. Thanks.

Not exactly. US citizens are required to file taxes wherever they are living. There is an allowance of $91,000 per person that is not taxed after deducting all of your living expenses abroad (rent, utilities etc). Chances are very good that between you and your wife you would not be making $182,000 after rent, utilities and a host of other items they let you deduct. In that case, while you file taxes, you pay nothing.

As for moving abroad, the poster who said that often our problems with a place are problems with ourselves is right. Moving doesn't solve problems.

Giving up on your own country is not necessarily going to win you any points. In my experience, the people in Europe who don't like Americans are even more disgusted by the American who's under the impression that he's somehow European.
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Old 18.12.2010, 16:33
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

It's a little bit like believing that having a or another baby will 'fix' things. In many ways it can make things an awful lot worse. Good luck whatever you decide- but I'd say don't burn all your bridges and visit for as long as poss before (remembering that a vacation is not the same as living here).

I quite like New Joysey myself - especially Barnagate Island.
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Old 18.12.2010, 16:34
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Just left California for Switzerland - but it's all about the job for me. I didn't really want to leave the US but no-one was offering this kind of opportunity to me there. It's easy to get sucked into 'the US is going to hell' stuff but at least you get to flush the toilet when you want to (which you don't in Switzerland). I have moved around a lot - Europe and US - and it is easy to pin your hopes on a place and then be disappointed. If you've not lived in Europe, you won't understand how free the US is - by comparison Europe can be very oppressive. But that's a personal comment. And I agree, leaving friends and family can seem attractive but it is hard and it takes a great deal of effort to set up a new life anywhere.
I hope you mean it as a joke, that you could not flush the toilet 24 hours per day here in Switzerland as you really can do so. I believe that such stories are done in order to scare a bit too gullible Americans and some other a bit too trusting foreigners
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Old 18.12.2010, 16:36
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Re: Absolutely disgusted with American politics and the state of living here....

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Not exactly. US citizens are required to file taxes wherever they are living. There is an allowance of $91,000 per person that is not taxed after deducting all of your living expenses abroad (rent, utilities etc). Chances are very good that between you and your wife you would not be making $182,000 after rent, utilities and a host of other items they let you deduct. In that case, while you file taxes, you pay nothing.
Yes, file, thanks for the clarification. Only thought of it later.

Of course, it does make for a bit of a headache at tax time - and added costs if you have a professional help you with the taxes.
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