Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 31.01.2011, 14:41
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 725
Groaned at 88 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 325 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Should someone be allowed to starve to death?

A few days ago a young woman who lived in the home for handicapped, where I work, died.

Now this young lady was badly physically handicapped with a very deformed body , slightly mentally handicapped but with a good cognitive understanding i.e. she was aware of what was happening in her surroundings and it was possible to build up a relationship with her. One of her other major problems however was that she had been born with a very poor swallowing reflex and it was very difficult to get food/drink into her with the result that at the age of 21 she weighed 27 kilo at the most.

This problem however,could have been overcome by inserting a valve directly into the stomach and feeding her through the stomach which process could/should have been done as a young child. Her parents however refused to agree to this.

Personally I am of the opinion that this young girl/lady died of starvation (although officially cause of death was due to complications after a hip operation).

I have no argument with someone being allowed to die but to watch someone slowly starve to death over 21 years is not a very pleasant way to die and is a very slow way to die.

My question is do you think the wishes of the parents regarding feeding through the stomach should have been complied with or disregarded?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Enaj for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 31.01.2011, 14:51
colinwheeler's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Gersau
Posts: 998
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 872 Times in 440 Posts
colinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

I don't think the wishes of the parents should be allowed to negativley effect the health of a child, no.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank colinwheeler for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 31.01.2011, 14:57
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,415
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 10,952 Times in 3,253 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

I realize that these discussions have to start somewhere, but I can't help thinking how I would feel if I had just lost a family member and then found myself being accused of starving her to death - on a public forum - by the very staff who were looking after her! 'Outraged' doesn't begin to describe it.

Enaj, would you consider restarting the thread with less of a personal/work-related angle?
Reply With Quote
The following 17 users would like to thank MathNut for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 31.01.2011, 15:01
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
View Post
A few days ago a young woman who lived in the home for handicapped, where I work, died.

Now this young lady was badly physically handicapped with a very deformed body , slightly mentally handicapped but with a good cognitive understanding i.e. she was aware of what was happening in her surroundings and it was possible to build up a relationship with her. One of her other major problems however was that she had been born with a very poor swallowing reflex and it was very difficult to get food/drink into her with the result that at the age of 21 she weighed 27 kilo at the most.

This problem however,could have been overcome by inserting a valve directly into the stomach and feeding her through the stomach which process could/should have been done as a young child. Her parents however refused to agree to this.

Personally I am of the opinion that this young girl/lady died of starvation (although officially cause of death was due to complications after a hip operation).

I have no argument with someone being allowed to die but to watch someone slowly starve to death over 21 years is not a very pleasant way to die and is a very slow way to die.

My question is do you think the wishes of the parents regarding feeding through the stomach should have been complied with or disregarded?
She was aware of her situation? what was her opinion?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 31.01.2011, 15:04
grynch's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Geneva/Vaud
Posts: 4,945
Groaned at 50 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 5,199 Times in 2,354 Posts
grynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

slightly off topic...
my wife's aunt passed away last year.. she was 94 years old, physically ok, mentally she had lapses but was mostly ok but due to her situation she was profoundly unhappy.
she wanted to go home( to a place that simply didnt exist anymore )and when it became apparent that wasn't going to happen she stopped eating, stopped drinking, stopped taking her meds and in less than a week she was gone.
.
should the care home have force fed her and kept her alive in a place where she was so profoundly unhappy?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank grynch for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 31.01.2011, 15:42
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: a
Posts: 134
Groaned at 6 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 78 Times in 52 Posts
Dramaticpause has earned some respectDramaticpause has earned some respect
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
View Post
slightly off topic...
my wife's aunt passed away last year.. she was 94 years old, physically ok, mentally she had lapses but was mostly ok but due to her situation she was profoundly unhappy.
she wanted to go home( to a place that simply didnt exist anymore )and when it became apparent that wasn't going to happen she stopped eating, stopped drinking, stopped taking her meds and in less than a week she was gone.
.
should the care home have force fed her and kept her alive in a place where she was so profoundly unhappy?
No, but then again that wasn't the only option was it? Maybe she would have been happier in a different place (albeit not the home she wanted). Pointless consideration though I guess, she died bless her and it's sad.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Dramaticpause for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 31.01.2011, 16:01
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
View Post
A few days ago a young woman who lived in the home for handicapped, where I work, died.

Now this young lady was badly physically handicapped with a very deformed body , slightly mentally handicapped but with a good cognitive understanding i.e. she was aware of what was happening in her surroundings and it was possible to build up a relationship with her. One of her other major problems however was that she had been born with a very poor swallowing reflex and it was very difficult to get food/drink into her with the result that at the age of 21 she weighed 27 kilo at the most.

This problem however,could have been overcome by inserting a valve directly into the stomach and feeding her through the stomach which process could/should have been done as a young child. Her parents however refused to agree to this.

Personally I am of the opinion that this young girl/lady died of starvation (although officially cause of death was due to complications after a hip operation).

I have no argument with someone being allowed to die but to watch someone slowly starve to death over 21 years is not a very pleasant way to die and is a very slow way to die.

My question is do you think the wishes of the parents regarding feeding through the stomach should have been complied with or disregarded?
I understand your sentiments. But if she lived till the age of 21 then she wasn't exactly starved to death, now, was she? In other words if they really wanted to starve her to death they would have ceased all feeding completely. The Soul had an opportunity to leave that body and did so. Its lilke stepping out of an old pair of shoes that you no longer need. She's at peace now...Its not only life, but people need to also get an understanding about death too. Something we all eventually will have to go through...Life is so tricky. No matter how healthy, sick, rich, poor, evil, good, hardworking, lazy,big,small the list can go on forever everyone will die, there are no exceptions. She's happy to be out of that body, it was restricting her growth.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 31.01.2011, 16:11
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

We still don,t know what was the girl's wishes. She was aware of her situation, did she asked to change it? Did she want to?

My grand-father had parkinsson. He was in a very bad shape at the end. He couldn't so anything by himself and a strong man like him couldn't take it well. It was humiliating for him.

One morning, the Health home care center he was in called to let us know that he refused to eat. We went to him and asked why. He couldn't handle it anymore, it was driving him crazy and it wasn't quality of life. So he told us that he wouldn't eat anymore and let himself die.

He got transfered to the hospital and at they end of the second day he was very angry! He couldn't understand how come he was still alive! We told him, that it takes more time to pass from not eating. Until the very end, my grand-father had a great sense of humour.

Anyway, because of the pain, he was on medications and his doctor began to give him more and more of it and at the end of the week, the heart stopped and he was gone.

He left when he had enough and he did it with as most dignity as he could have in his condition.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 31.01.2011, 16:11
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,971
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

I think when this person "came of age", the decision should no longer have been with the parents but with the courts and then she should have been given the feeding tube thingy.

You are right she probably didn't die of starvation. But her body was most likely in no shape to hand such a serious operation.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 31.01.2011, 16:17
colinwheeler's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Gersau
Posts: 998
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 872 Times in 440 Posts
colinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Having grown up around some religious whack-jobs that would not allow their kids to have medical treatment, I think that many of these cases would benefit from community/legal intervention. Of course we don't know anywhere near enough to make that sort of call about situation.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 31.01.2011, 17:32
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Where does one draw the line - without knowing the case better, it is impossible to comment.

My poor mum lived 10 years too long thanks to the obsessive 'kindness' of staff in the old peoples' home, against her will and wishes. She refused to eat, but was given hypervitamin/protein drinks which kept her going and given antibiotics every time she coughed. She had a living-will and was a long time member of EXIT - but the staff's motto was that every life is a blessing, etc. Their Charter specifically stated that EXIT were NOT allowed to help members when residents. She was blind, in constant pain and totally dependent - and hated every minute- finally attained her goal aged 94.

Of course, very different from a 21 year old. So sad - but maybe exactly what she wanted. Like Nil, I would really like to understand better what HER wishes were.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 31.01.2011, 17:42
colinwheeler's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Gersau
Posts: 998
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 872 Times in 440 Posts
colinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
Where does one draw the line - without knowing the case better, it is impossible to comment.
But that is why we should have a mature community and legal back-up system right, because just the parents/family/care giver are not always the people best positioned to make those decisions.
For any vulnerable people (old or young) they should be able to rely on thier community and society to help them make the best decisions.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 31.01.2011, 18:03
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Agreed- as long as it does listen, and not impose, let's say, Christian or other religious/cultural bias. So many so called 'advisors' for abortion for instance, either have a 'pro life at any cost' or 'ultra feminist' bias, instead of a compassionate system that honestly helps with making an informed decision.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 01.02.2011, 10:50
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: a
Posts: 134
Groaned at 6 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 78 Times in 52 Posts
Dramaticpause has earned some respectDramaticpause has earned some respect
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
View Post
But that is why we should have a mature community and legal back-up system right, because just the parents/family/care giver are not always the people best positioned to make those decisions.
For any vulnerable people (old or young) they should be able to rely on thier community and society to help them make the best decisions.
Or you could argue that a bunch of total strangers shouldn't be able to impact on life and death decisons for an individual! (Sorry, just playing the Devils advocate there didn't mean to be a pain)

I want to say that "beliefs" into the rights and wrongs of transfusions, transplants, medical procedures or other related issues shouldn't get in the way of quality of life but thats just another big bag of worms to open up I guess. What constitutes a belief and why shouldn't you be allowed one?

(ummm - I don't think I've made this debate any clearer)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Dramaticpause for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 01.02.2011, 12:24
m_dalloway's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 323
Groaned at 14 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 363 Times in 170 Posts
m_dalloway has an excellent reputationm_dalloway has an excellent reputationm_dalloway has an excellent reputationm_dalloway has an excellent reputation
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

My sincerest sympathies to you, Enaj, must have been very distressing to witness this...


Quote:
View Post
My question is do you think the wishes of the parents regarding feeding through the stomach should have been complied with or disregarded?
I am seriously shocked that none of the patient's doctors, or people in charge at the home where you work, had intervened.
Even if the parents had custody over their daughter, I doubt (aside from ethics imo) legal grounds to decide in such case against forced alimentation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank m_dalloway for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 01.02.2011, 12:27
m_dalloway's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 323
Groaned at 14 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 363 Times in 170 Posts
m_dalloway has an excellent reputationm_dalloway has an excellent reputationm_dalloway has an excellent reputationm_dalloway has an excellent reputation
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
View Post
But that is why we should have a mature community and legal back-up system right, because just the parents/family/care giver are not always the people best positioned to make those decisions.
the Swiss federal court just had very recently decided in a case in favor of forced alimentation, even though the patient was considered 'compos mentis'.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01.02.2011, 14:26
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 725
Groaned at 88 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 325 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
View Post
I.

Enaj, would you consider restarting the thread with less of a personal/work-related angle?
Sorry - too late now. Yo can delete it you want
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01.02.2011, 17:04
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Please could you share with us your perception'knowledge of the girl's wishes in this matter. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02.02.2011, 08:54
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 725
Groaned at 88 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 325 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
Please could you share with us your perception'knowledge of the girl's wishes in this matter. Thanks.

Actually it is very difficult to know because, apart from the fact that no-one asked her (maybe the parents did - I don't know), she was slightly mentally handicapped and such a question would have been beyond her understanding. She did however, refuse all attempts to feed her 3 weeks before she died.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02.02.2011, 09:02
grynch's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Geneva/Vaud
Posts: 4,945
Groaned at 50 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 5,199 Times in 2,354 Posts
grynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should someone be allowed to starve to death

Quote:
View Post
She did however, refuse all attempts to feed her 3 weeks before she died.

so could that have been a knowledgeable decision on her part?
( as with my auntie? )
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The death penalty? Castro General off-topic 163 12.03.2015 14:24
Do you think about your death? scribble Family matters/health 58 02.05.2010 12:25
death by... Holunderbeeren peebix Food and drink 10 31.08.2009 09:13


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0